About mental wounds, KoS, alts and other stuff.

[LaserSaysPew]

Yeah that's literally just the theft skill.

There's really not much you can do to change the mind of someone who wants to murder someone else. The penalties and dangers are already high: you're blocked from teleporting to your hearth for an hour, you don't log out when you exit the game for days, anyone can track you to your base or while you're out in the wild. It's a dangerous lifestyle and if you're going into it, you're going into it knowing full well what might happen. Adding small penalties isn't going to deter or slow anyone down who has a KoS policy.

Due to bi-weekly patches and regular server crashes it's extra dangerous for people who have crime scents around because they can be stuck in the wild defenseless if they're not paying attention. Like, imagine raiding a base, ramming their wall or running around robbing buildings and then the server crashed. If you don't log on before the enemy does you'll be standing there completely prone as they kill you. They don't even need Rage to attack or murder you, they can just drop a p claim on top of you and use that to engage you in combat.

If these threats and dangers aren't going to deter someone then -50 to their stats isn't going to either.

Well, clearly those penalties and dangers don't work right now. Maybe -50 to their stats won't stop them(don't forget about -50hhp), what about the next -50 if they want to kill another char? What if someone attacks their village while they are weakened from killing others? Those penalties are not supposed to remove killing, just to lower it. Prevent random murders out of the blue.

Edit. What about "Mental Anguish 10" then? 100hhp. Or "Mental Anguish %".

[TeckXKnight]

Giving someone -100 HHP for awhile would suck, sure, but it's not like we can't just buff con. Unless you're still running around with 20 con and you're pumpkin pie-less then it's an annoyance but I'm still going to kill the guy and then go home and do domestic tasks. I'm sure no one is going to complain if I level dirt and clear out cellars for a day after murdering 3 people. Heck, out of all the penalties, -100 HHP is probably the least concerning.

The problem here is that you don't have any practical experience murdering someone or dealing with the act or aftermath. What's going to deter me from killing someone? If they're an active trade partner or ally of my village and having them alive is more meaningful to me than having them dead. If I have an emotional investment in the person and I'd feel like shit if I killed them. If I think I'll get shitstomped by the enemy or rangers. Or if they really don't deserve it over some bullshit and, much like the emotional aspect, I'd feel bad about killing them.

Stat loss, temporary or permanent, health loss, temporary or permanent, and even loss of material possessions isn't going to stop me. If some asshole just threatened or attempted to attack my villagemates they're going to die or I'm going to die trying. If some sprucecap newbie came through my region shouting racial epithets and paving swastikas into the area I'm probably going to kill them too. If I suffer stat loss for a week? Who cares. Food is cheap and feasting is easy.

[LaserSaysPew]

Giving someone -100 HHP for awhile would suck, sure, but it's not like we can't just buff con. Unless you're still running around with 20 con and you're pumpkin pie-less then it's an annoyance but I'm still going to kill the guy and then go home and do domestic tasks. I'm sure no one is going to complain if I level dirt and clear out cellars for a day after murdering 3 people. Heck, out of all the penalties, -100 HHP is probably the least concerning.

If you can heal 1 hhp per hour only, that won't be a day for even 1 murder, not to mention 3.
300hp - 300 hours of healing with some expensive stuff(e.g. silk), while losing 60% of your int, str and agi(-2% each) and a flat -60 int, str, agi. Debuffs will diminish over time ofc once wounds are being healed.

Stat loss, temporary or permanent, health loss, temporary or permanent, and even loss of material possessions isn't going to stop me. If some asshole just threatened or attempted to attack my villagemates they're going to die or I'm going to die trying. If some sprucecap newbie came through my region shouting racial epithets and paving swastikas into the area I'm probably going to kill them too. If I suffer stat loss for a week? Who cares. Food is cheap and feasting is easy.

Can't see anything wrong with that, tbh. Once again, penalties are not meant to remove killing from the game.

[TeckXKnight]

We're running into another problem here. You're suggesting essentially blocking someone from playing their character for 300 hours for using an in-game mechanic. If I have to cycle through murder characters every 2 weeks then yeah, I'll go out of my way and spend 10 hours walking an alt over to my village and using them as a murder alt. IP lock? I'll just run a proxy. If you want to so badly block murder on my main then you don't leave me a lot of choice but to run a murder alt.

[LaserSaysPew]

We're running into another problem here. You're suggesting essentially blocking someone from playing their character for 300 hours for using an in-game mechanic. If I have to cycle through murder characters every 2 weeks then yeah, I'll go out of my way and spend 10 hours walking an alt over to my village and using them as a murder alt. IP lock? I'll just run a proxy. If you want to so badly block murder on my main then you don't leave me a lot of choice but to run a murder alt.

That's why I said about removing alts
Alts are actually the main problem here. Imagine there are no alts: I can do smth well, you can do some other stuff well, we live nearby. We can trade, we can form a village or just do favours to each other. With alts our only option is pvping and eventually killing one another once someone achieves a KO.

[TeckXKnight]

I can guarantee you, you can't stop alts. If I have to bootup Haven at starbucks to make the alt and have another villager use them while I KO somebody, it'll happen. There is no meaningful enough distinction you can make to permanently block alts. If it's just a buy-in cost where only verified or subscribed accounts can buy black skills, then it's $15 for a murder alt, that's not a big deal.

If I have to sit through over 9000 hours of -99% all stats and health for murder, then that's just an awful mechanic. But seriously, that's a bad mechanic and I'd be the first to abuse it by sitting characters in front of gates and forcing villages to kill them to exit. If the debuff is so insurmountably huge that it's meant to inescapably cripple a character -- why? Your goal isn't to stop killing a random person every week anymore, your goal is the removal of permadeath in all but name. The worst part is that people would still kill other people. That just means you can't play for a month. Cool. Murder 2-3 people and don't subscribe for a month. Feed your character curios and food out of stockpiles or the kindness of friends/villagers. Come back in a month when the debuff is gone and repeat.

Small debuffs won't matter, huge debuffs make murder moot, and there is no goldilocks zone.

After awhile no one will use the Murder skill and we'll just have animals kill you while you're down or equip high quality leeches onto you. It's inconvenient but if it's more efficient then it's more efficient.

[shubla]

one way is to try make mechanics so gap between those who use tons of alts and those who only have 1 char is smaller.
Or then just make it so alt users dont affect in gameplay of other nonaltusers.

[TeckXKnight]

one way is to try make mechanics so gap between those who use tons of alts and those who only have 1 char is smaller.
Or then just make it so alt users dont affect in gameplay of other nonaltusers.

How? Alts are essentially just extra villagers. If you have the time and energy to effectively play as much as 2-3 people you're going to have an advantage over anyone who is only effectively playing as 1 person. More work being done at a higher efficiency will always translate into an advantage.

[LaserSaysPew]

I can guarantee you, you can't stop alts. If I have to bootup Haven at starbucks to make the alt and have another villager use them while I KO somebody, it'll happen. There is no meaningful enough distinction you can make to permanently block alts. If it's just a buy-in cost where only verified or subscribed accounts can buy black skills, then it's $15 for a murder alt, that's not a big deal.

If I have to sit through over 9000 hours of -99% all stats and health for murder, then that's just an awful mechanic. But seriously, that's a bad mechanic and I'd be the first to abuse it by sitting characters in front of gates and forcing villages to kill them to exit. If the debuff is so insurmountably huge that it's meant to inescapably cripple a character -- why? Your goal isn't to stop killing a random person every week anymore, your goal is the removal of permadeath in all but name. The worst part is that people would still kill other people. That just means you can't play for a month. Cool. Murder 2-3 people and don't subscribe for a month. Feed your character curios and food out of stockpiles or the kindness of friends/villagers. Come back in a month when the debuff is gone and repeat.

Small debuffs won't matter, huge debuffs make murder moot, and there is no goldilocks zone.

After awhile no one will use the Murder skill and we'll just have animals kill you while you're down or equip high quality leeches onto you. It's inconvenient but if it's more efficient then it's more efficient.

Killing someone on your claim/village claim doesn't inflict wounds.
About killing 3 people and waiting for a month. Srsly? That's not even an argument. If a person loves hafen that he subbed, he won't just forget about it for a month. He will consider not killing instead. Also, if he does what you say, will other villagers provide for him? What if they want to kill someone too? Will they all just sit there for a month? Ofc no. They'll have to think about killing someone instead of just doing it. Hence less murders. You're arguing that if someone wants to kill, he will kill. Yes! That's he point. He will, I don't see anything weird with it. And he will suffer penalties. But for most people those penalties will be a natural barrier.

[TeckXKnight]

So your solution is that I have to build a personal claim ontop of anyone I KO before murdering them?

And I mean, yeah, why wouldn't I patiently wait? If that's the option I have or being forced to play farmville against my will, I'll plan for the murder, prepare accordingly, and then kill people. This isn't even a hypothetical situation, people have spent weeks setting up vaults and characters to murder people and then leaving them offline until the scents disappeared. Hell, that's the sole job of palibashers for awhile. Pop online when it's time to kick over a wall and then to stay offline until the scents are gone and they're not at risk.

I get that you think these are extreme examples but honest to god, that's how Haven is played. Not everyone is a farmer that has to log in every day to gather crops. I can spend a day gathering glimmer, sell it for a variety of food and curios that I'll need to stay offline for a couple of weeks while my debuff goes away, and life goes on.

This is all also under the assumption that alts and work arounds aren't a factor. But they are. And they always will be. You can add buy-in cost to he equation but when Vigi says that people will find ways around it, he's telling the truth. The more profitable it is to have an alt, the more likely I am to make one. You can log my IP and my machine specs to ban my computer and internet range, but even if you ban my country from playing I'll just use a proxy and a cheap $400 computer to run that alt. Until there's a magic way to make a gun pop out of my screen when I play two accounts, alts will be a thing.

Edit: Worth noting the people who you would potentially be discouraging from murder are people who aren't going to murder anyone anyway: hermits and players who don't know the mechanics well enough to work around them. Large raiding factions are going to murder everyone anyway. Small raiding factions are going to murder anyone anyway. Yolo players are going to harass and murder everyone anyway. If someone is playing a style where they want to kill someone, they'll plan accordingly and deal with it. They always have and they always will. You build your assets and resources to accommodate your playstyle.