Suggestion - Karma

[SarcasticSoul]

I've posted this before in the past in another thread that got little attention, and for a time I didn't figure it was worth reposting. However, after seeing a few similar-minded topics come up here, and especially after the introduction of Valhalla, I figured it might be time to bring it up again.

I'll preface this by saying that I am firmly of the belief that removing permadeath from this game would be to rip out the heart and soul of it. When you play this game as a hermit or a small group of people (or arguably, in some cases, even a thriving village) achieving things in this game -means- something. If you could just get everything back after a death, it would be trivialized.

I'll echo the opinion that the PvP mongering is the driving problem behind the current system. The persistent wounds, ability to engage in combat on your own claim without skills to do so, these are good starts to deterring random slaughter and griefing, but ultimately it isn't enough. As a fairly casual player who plays with fairly casual players, I've seen the level of insane progress speed people are capable of in this game. I don't honestly think you can effectively penalize or deter griefers enough to help without making it incredibly unfair. If we weren't meant to murder each other, the option wouldn't exist in the game.

Instead of penalizing griefers, I think the better solution is to aid crafters and casuals. Right now, the system favors fighters. Kill a village, get their shit. Don't bother with fighting, you're going to die and lose it all.

What about a karma system, then?

Given that we can now engage others in combat on our own claims without the required skills, there is almost literally no reason to buy skills like Rage or Murder unless you plan to use them. So what if players who live like saints are rewarded in the afterlife, while players who live like Huns are rewarded on the mortal coil? It seems obvious to me that people who murder others and raid villages have plenty of benefits associated with their life choices. They feel braver outside their walls because they can fight, they can pillage and steal like raiding barbarians, they can have the warmongering they want. Non-combat hearthlings enjoy the benefits of crafting, creating, and enjoying a simpler life of creating high quality goods. Either can be taken away in an instant, but the non-combatants are undeniably at a massive advantage. So how about something like this:

Hearthlings begin with a pure karma score. This is a hidden value that the player is aware of only by mention, and has no visible representation. Hearthlings can live their entire existences and never lose a karma point if they so choose, but they can permanently lose karma if they decide to live on the edge. Purchasing skills like Rage, Theft and Tresspassing, committing acts of murder, assault, theft or trespassing, any action that breaches the hearthlaw causes the hearthling to lose karma. When a hearthling with no karma dies, their ancestor gets nothing save for presumably the leftover spoils of Attila Senior. Meanwhile, hearthlings with positive karma scores lend a percentage (albeit a reasonably low percentage, perhaps in the 10-15% range) of their accumulated LP to their ancestor. The higher your karma, the better off your ancestor will be.

Having brought up the permadeath/inheritance topic before, I've read the responses and decided that I agree with the assessment that legacy was far too forgiving for death in terms of LP inherited. But what I've seen follow that point over and over is "it made warriors/griefers too strong because they could die and come back with almost everything."

Why should warriors come back with everything? They take things from others for a living. They presumably have a throne built of the skulls of their victims, pillaged goods from raided settlements, back-up plans and alts because really who does pvp in a permadeath game unless they're sure they've got less at stake than their victim?

Good little hearthlings who never did nobody no harm don't have a skull throne to leave their children. They have ashes and tears and nothing to show for the innocent lives they led.

Other points I've thought of since this was last brought up:
"What if someone kills my village friend in the woods and we need to go kill him in retaliation? That defeats the 'you can fight for free on your own claim' point, how can we seek sweet vengeance without sacrificing our karma?"
- Simple solution, if it isn't already there, add the ability to attack any outlaw freely without the required skills. If you have the debuff from being a terrible person, anyone can kick your ass if they find you and choose to do so. (Again, not sure if this is already there.)

"Wouldn't that mean that murderous characters who are killed before all their karma is lost will just come back faster?"
-Not necessarily. Things like theft and trespassing are minor crimes by comparison, and as such result in lighter karma loss. Murdering people on the other hand is going to kneecap your karma. Shouldn't take more than 2 or 3 slayings to bring it to rock bottom.

"Can't people just get more karma after they kill people?"
-Nope. There's essentially no way to "accidentally" commit a crime or buy a black skill, so there's no reason to implement a way to regain lost karma.

Thoughts?

[sabinati]

no thanks

[DDDsDD999]

No thanks.

[Original]

No thanks.

[Sevenless]

You're going to find some harsh resistance to any idea that reduces the brutality and harshness of haven from the community at large primarily because the vociferous community that still plays the game after all this time tends to be both accustomed to brutality and/or enjoys it.

[venatorvenator]

You're going to find some harsh resistance to any idea that reduces the brutality and harshness of haven from the community at large primarily because the vociferous community that still plays the game after all this time tends to be both accustomed to brutality and/or enjoys it.

Yes.

Also, while we do need more balance as in additional or exclusive options for players who choose not to buy black skills, such as special buildings, burrows, or some sort of defense to reflect their lifestyles, I'm strongly against any sort of normative determination of what's a good and a bad deed as is suggested in your idea of in-game reward and punishment.

[craigh1993]

Isn't this game based on Vikings? With Valhalla etc they loved themselves some raiding so I don't see why being good should give you an advantage except to make stability in the world by people playing for the meta game. Though it would be cool if your spirit was represented good/evil in Valhalla so there's an eternal battle between the two there.

Obviously the evil would out number the good by far seeing as most characters worthy of valhalla probably have killed or will eventually kill, and the good 'spirits' will just be characters with high stats and no kills/crimes

[Sevenless]

To be honest, I hate that the game practically demands complete slaughter of your enemies or anyone you cross even slightly. Even if you rob someone, you're far far better off killing them than giving them any sort of a character to attack you back with. Even robbing someone right now will take off half their HHP permanently if you let them live. Robbery and any form of negotiation other than complete slaughter at first sight would be a nice bit of depth.

But I don't see a viable way to make that work, and a good chunk of the community doesn't want it either. *shrugs* Take it or leave it.

[cpt1silencer]

I liked how Ultima Online had PK'ing, NPC guards were in town, so carebears had a place to hide, outside of town was free kill zone.

This game dosn't have NPC guards, so maybe you can add in defensive buildings like Wurm online, a really expensive guard tower that can't be placed near other guard towers that spawns npc guards based on the quality of the tower.

[TeckXKnight]

Given that we can now engage others in combat on our own claims without the required skills, there is almost literally no reason to buy skills like Rage or Murder unless you plan to use them.

This is an incredibly dangerous mindset to have. If you don't have vandalism you literally have no way to stop someone who takes 2 seconds to setup a p claim and ram next to your wall and puts a roundpole fence around it. Without rage you can't meaningfully or adequately defend yourself or your friends. Pre-chop nerf the only defense you had against someone who intended to insta chop kill you was to aggro them in combat and move away when they started to move towards you so that you had time to setup defenses.

Black skills are not this good/evil dichotomy. They're there to give us options.

Worse, systems like this are begging to be abused and exploited. Why not just build a p claim on top of everyone I plan on murdering? They're KO'd anyway, it's not like they can stop me. I can still freely murder with minor karma penalties from assault and battery.