Silver/Gold Sub Tokens

[xzo]

1) rename sub tokens to Bronze Subscription Tokens
2) add Silver and Gold Subscription Tokens
3) make more money on the game and bring some big in game trading incentive making people less likely to quit

[The_Lich_King]

Trading incentive based on in-game items you buy with real world money is so cancerous and fucking stupid. Sub-tokens already need to be removed and you want them to add more?!?!?!?!?

[xzo]

lets put your scenario into play then, they remove sub tokens and I will sell someone stone axe for 10USD via paypay, whats next ?

my point is that the sub tokens system does work in sense that 3rd party apps are not as much used as they could be without it, cash trading is still out there and removing sub tokens wont change anything
adding more variations however might only bring more people into the game

I am not a fan of pay to win but lets face it IT IS IN EVERY MMO because of the nature of the game, so why not make everyone benefit from it

[vatas]

Sub tokens are a necessary evil. Or at least, lesser of two evils.

[pawnchito]

Sub tokens are a necessary evil. Or at least, lesser of two evils.

Its nice to have a way to funnel money to the devs and have a powerful trading item. Games like this always develop dark markets where people use IRL money to buy items, Tokens give people the option to support the devs while still having a tradeworthy item.

[VDZ]

It's undeniable though that RMT is more common and influential with subtokens than it was without. It wasn't all that long ago that people were complaining that the price of everything was inflated because traders expected people to buy stuff using subtokens instead of in-game goods. I'm sure it happened sometimes, but I'm fairly sure buying in-game goods (talking about tools and materials, not hats) with real-life money didn't happen much in Legacy, while in Hafen it seems to be the standard for high-end trading early world.

[The_Lich_King]

lets put your scenario into play then, they remove sub tokens and I will sell someone stone axe for 10USD via paypay, whats next ?

my point is that the sub tokens system does work in sense that 3rd party apps are not as much used as they could be without it, cash trading is still out there and removing sub tokens wont change anything
adding more variations however might only bring more people into the game

I am not a fan of pay to win but lets face it IT IS IN EVERY MMO because of the nature of the game, so why not make everyone benefit from it

My scenario did happen. Its how the game used to work and there was almost no trading with IRL money during that time.

You are presenting the fallacy of the false dichotomy trying to posit that there is only 2 outcomes to this scenario. Either people use real money to pay for items, or people use real money to pay for sub-tokens to pay for items. Its a logical fallacy for a reason, and that's because it ignores reality. This dichotomy doesn't exist in actuality and it can be quite plainly evidenced by the worlds before sub-tokens.

I despise sub-tokens but can at least tolerate them even though they have ruined and destroyed trade but introducing more pay to win is absurd.

[pawnchito]

so you didnt see irl money transactions therefore they didnt exist? My dude people are going to trade cash for items because people can and because it is so much easier to transfer funds now than it was 8 years ago. At least the devs get some money from people buying tokens to then trade. You may be wrong about tokens destroying trade.

[The_Lich_King]

so you didnt see irl money transactions therefore they didnt exist? My dude people are going to trade cash for items because people can and because it is so much easier to transfer funds now than it was 8 years ago. At least the devs get some money from people buying tokens to then trade. You may be wrong about tokens destroying trade.

"You saw no evidence of their existence, therefore you should believe they existed because you didn't see them not happening."

Great argument but its somewhat mitigated by the fact that trade is something people are very vocal about and were vocal about before sub-tokens. Interestingly nobody ever made an argument about this black market, money for items scam you think was going on, there were no C&I posts about how to fix how irl money was destroying trade, there was no established barter system for IRL money in Dwarves and Thieves... actually any conceivable way where evidence of this mysterious irl money market hiding beneath the seems of Haven, mysteriously has no evidence that it ever existed.

Lack of evidence means it is reasonable to believe it didn't happen. We have plenty of evidence of how Sub-tokens have destroyed the trade market and they HAVE destroyed the market. The game did not have a pay to win element before them and they eliminated alot of bartering for in game items.

I am not trying to choke the devs out of in-game money (actually i think there are alot of better ways they could make money, like having other cosmetics apart from hats) but Sub-Tokens are harmful to the game, they do not replace any element of this real life money for item conspiracy you believe was happening... they were simply bad for the game and what you suggest is worse for the game.

[pawnchito]

people didnt post on forums about trading money for gold in wow yet i made several real life benjamins by trading them. now its even easier with the paypals and venmos and bitcoins. people will absolutely always pay to win if they make enough to be able to afford luxuries. the hardcores pay with time in game, the rich folk pay with work money.

I mean like really real life money transactions are so prevalent they had fucking people in jail earning that keep. Like dude life finds a way or something is all im saying.

Crazy take but this type of game would be perfect for NFTs. Could you imagine, trade some eth for a 500+ anvil.

also, if you were a part of black market you think people would go to the official forums and advertise that? I know if i was selling contraband the first place id let people know about it is the "establishment" website.