Goons: The negros of Haven and Hearth

[kobnach]

that last bit just sounds like common sense

The Havamal is full of common sense. The nearest Christian equivalent is the Book of Proverbs.

[Delamore]

Raeph, wanna pardon Jon? They dont care it seems, and up till he did this he was a completely inoffensive guy.
I vote for giving him ONE break. He totally over-reacted and did kill innocents, but he was seriously provoked. He also offered to surrender to you in single combat at RoB, so he is showing contrition.
And, the goonies that you were doing this on behalf of just insulted you.

Killed innocents? The guy stayed there for hours and hours on end killing people as they logged in and newbies who came over to the camp.
He knew exactly what he was doing.

[Raephire]

Raeph, wanna pardon Jon? They dont care it seems, and up till he did this he was a completely inoffensive guy.
I vote for giving him ONE break. He totally over-reacted and did kill innocents, but he was seriously provoked. He also offered to surrender to you in single combat at RoB, so he is showing contrition.
And, the goonies that you were doing this on behalf of just insulted you.

Killed innocents? The guy stayed there for hours and hours on end killing people as they logged in and newbies who came over to the camp.
He knew exactly what he was doing.

Im devoted completely to raising my exploration skill, It will be over 150 before 4 days is up,

[LiberalLies]

What! How dare you insult the mighty Raep?! SYCOPHANT SQUAD, ASSEMBLE!

You are functionally retarded and are the reason why every goon community ever refused to associate with the "pubbies". Also Raep owns, OCD owns.

Im devoted completely to raising my exploration skill, It will be over 150 before 4 days is up,

owns

[kobnach]

Raeph, wanna pardon Jon? They dont care it seems, and up till he did this he was a completely inoffensive guy.
I vote for giving him ONE break. He totally over-reacted and did kill innocents, but he was seriously provoked. He also offered to surrender to you in single combat at RoB, so he is showing contrition.
And, the goonies that you were doing this on behalf of just insulted you.

Killed innocents? The guy stayed there for hours and hours on end killing people as they logged in and newbies who came over to the camp.
He knew exactly what he was doing.

I'm with Delamore on this - I like Jon, and he was an excellent neighbour when I was living in what became Goonieheim, before I decided to move to get away from JTG and his friends. I know he was first griefed and later assaulted by (some of) these people and their alts, and because (some of them) are alt abusers, it's basically impossible to identify the true perpetrators. Maybe justice has to be even, but I can understand someone with really good combat stats choosing to fight back rather than being chased away. Also, I'm immensely grateful to him for standing his ground - because I'm sure that JTG and his ilk would have moved on to harassing those beyond him if Jon had simply moved away, making an ever larger ring in the map centre unlivable for honest producers.

I am sorry for any honest goons who got caught up in Jon's vengeance. But not much more sorry for them than I am for Cogan, the first of my neighbours to be driven away by JTG. If those killed were truly newbies, restarting won't cost them much. And if they ally with decent people in their new lives, they'll probably have a lot of help restarting.

[Raephire]

What! How dare you insult the mighty Raep?! SYCOPHANT SQUAD, ASSEMBLE!

You are functionally retarded and are the reason why every goon community ever refused to associate with the "pubbies". Also Raep owns, OCD owns.

Im devoted completely to raising my exploration skill, It will be over 150 before 4 days is up,

owns

Reason being, Im not a total douche, I function on logic and reason not emotions and "Justice" Fuck consensus.
True justice , even in a game, will never involve death. So fuck you Texas and California.

[Colbear]

I am sorry for any honest goons who got caught up in Jon's vengeance. But not much more sorry for them than I am for Cogan, the first of my neighbours to be driven away by JTG. If those killed were truly newbies, restarting won't cost them much. And if they ally with decent people in their new lives, they'll probably have a lot of help restarting.

Think of it from our perspective:

A friend (ALL GOOOOOOONS ARE FRIIIIIENDS) says, "Hey I found this cool game you might like. Here's the link, and I have some stuff, so I'll help you get started." That's you he's talking to, or maybe this is even someone else and you haven't seen him asking for people to play with yet. You go on, don't read the forums, and follow his directions and let him show you the basics of the game, putting up with your stupid questions like, "how do you move" and "how do you get dreams" and "i'm lost help me come get me".

Do you betray him when you find out a bunch of morons who make stupid posts on the official forum, like asking for sex to implement or raging at your friend for something-or-other, tell you that he's terrible and you're going to get killed because you "shouldn't talk to that type; they're dirty"? Or do you dig your heels in and defend the guy who helped you out and played nice and showed you this game?


Or let's say that was someone else, and you're a newbie after maybe 10 people have started playing with him, and building up a town. Now, you don't even know if there's a forum (true story: "here, if you were killed at new goonheim, post on the forums in the thread about it" "which one? the private SA thread or the public SA thread?"), because all you know about the game is a) some guy named JTG posted nicely talking about it and asking for people to play with him and b) some other guys, including your buddies you might know well, have joined and are having a blast, and they all would be happy to have to play with them, and they're playing with him.

So you go on IRC to ask your newbie questions, you spawn, and some guy invites you to a party so you can chat. And then you ask for help getting there, and someone comes down and walks you up, so you don't get lost, and you're instantly accepted -- no vetting, no requirements, no demands, just "oh are you one of us?" "yeah" "okay cool, we'll invite you to town so you can come in, have fun", and you can basically do whatever you want that you feel like doing and people will help you through anything you don't know how to do (if I have to explain how to plant trees again, I'm going to shoot someone).

And then, after you get some skills and make some branches, you get killed, and when you ask the official forums WHY, they say, "because we don't like your leader and people who associate with him deserve what they get". And by now, JTG's been nothing but nice to you, and all his associates (GOOOONS) have been nothing but nice to you, and welcoming, and accept you. So you have a jerk who killed you for no reason telling you that JTG's the bad guy here, and that they'd be nice to you if only you didn't talk to his kind, because they're tainted.

Do you put up with that? Because when he says "they're" tainted, you feel like they're really saying you're tainted. That they'll only accept you if you're "not like them" -- and mind you, if you're a newbie yet, you don't even know what tresspassing is or how to get it, just that people sometimes talk about not leaving scents when you steal and ohnoes you found some bricks in an urn and took them and are you safe or are people going to come after you? And your buddies said, "naw if you're a newbie you can't even do it yet; you're fine, you're safe, don't worry about it for now". And they're already accusing all goons of being thieves, and that's not very nice at all.

So do you leave? Leave all your friends (because if they're with JTG, and goonheim's with JTG, then... then what?)? The game's no fun without your friends to joke with and play with and build cool stuff with. You don't want to build someone else's stuff, you want to build YOUR stuff. And the only people who want you to leave are the jerks who killed you or think you deserved to die anyways. And the way they say it makes it feel like a threat: "ditch the goons and let them die, OR ELSE".

"And if they ally with decent people in their new lives, they'll probably have a lot of help restarting."

Your friends are shitty and deserved it. If you break apart and play by yourselves, appealing to us for help, we'll probably help you restart.

That's not a fucking nice thing to say. It's condescending and hurtful, and it makes us feel resentful towards you. Who are YOU to tell us who we can and can't talk to? Who are you to say, "we killed you but it's your fault, so come to us and we'll protect you"? You're basically being ~Draco Malfoy~ on the Hogwarts Express, telling Harry that ~they can be buddies but Ron's the wrong sort~: "I'll be your friend, don't worry. And I'll help you. But you can't be HIS friend, even though you were playing with him first and he's been nice to you."

AND WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT WORKED OUT, DONT WE.

[kobnach]

Oh, it sucks from your perspective. I don't disagree. But - having JTG in this game really sucks from my perspective, and he's cost me and others a lot more than merely a day or two of character development, not counting those he's driven entirely away from the game. It's unfortunate that he posts nicely and sucked a bunch of you folks into the game, only to have you get caught in the explosion.

As for being loyal to him - well, it''s very true to the game's theme. A lot of the sagas deal with the terrible things that happened because people were loyal to a quarrelsome idiot kinsman. That doesn't make the results suck any less, then or now.

[Edit - in any case, this isn't entirely about JTG. It's about allying with people who routinely commit vandalism, theft, assault, etc. It's possible some of you didn't know this - but it was not just JTG attacking people who tried to fish in the once-public fishing hole, or tried to visit the camp that persistent griefing had driven them from. I know and like the people whose homesteads became Goonheim. I'm told my homestead was also taken over, after I gave up and moved away from persistent griefing. And some at least of the recent players are persistently posting about how they want the penalties for theft reduced - perhaps because this is the playing style they prefer? Loyalty is an admirable trait - but loyalty to thieves and, especially, griefers amounts to taking sides with them, against more honest players - unfortunately even if you don't know about their playing style.]

[sami1337]

In my opinion all of the mocking goons just cancel out the innocence.

Junk for example i tried to help. He said he was going to settle down near us soon and whatever it was he needed, i asked him to follow me to get it. Luckily the server crashed just before we entered town and i found out he lied about him being a goon.
Rubs. I beat him down for running away from us after walking on our land. Eventually i let him go and felt good about it. However when i spoke to some other goons they mocked me with me letting him go and claiming to have stolen this and that.

You're a good and you know it. Besides gaia people you're know as the worst people on the web. Noone wants you around and noone likes you. You chose to do that (or paid, heh) and you'll have to live with it or just play without representing SA.

I've had experience with the same problem goons have now but on Wurm. I joined the game as one of a large forum that was known for bad behaviour on wurm. One of those "let's play" threads. However, instead of teaming with them i played on my own quite peacefully.

[Colbear]

Just because you're a snake that doesn't believe in loyalty to people you've known for years doesn't mean we are. Making fun of people isn't a murder-worthy offensive and you're a whiny, self-righteous bitch.