A question regarding the necessity of most skills

[DDDsDD999]

Perhaps this game could work fine even without skills or quality, just making villages, fast making characters and fighting for the luls.

b-buh my infinite numbahs!

[Amanda44]

Perhaps this game could work fine even without skills or quality, just making villages, fast making characters and fighting for the luls.

Well, it probably could still work but having skills sets direction and quality gives something to aim for which can continuously be improved upon - I like both and think they add to the game so would hate to see either removed.

[hitzu]

It's funny how old players discuss about newbie's problems.
From my experience skills are mostly OK. Farming LP gives some time to adapt to the game and I think LP price is fair enough. There are problems with the skill tree overall. For example it's not intuitive that the ropemaking should require the tanning skill first.

To be honest I see there old players complaining how much it is boring to make another new character. This could be true though.

[Archiplex]

It's funny how old players discuss about newbie's problems.
From my experience skills are mostly OK. Farming LP gives some time to adapt to the game and I think LP price is fair enough. There are problems with the skill tree overall. For example it's not intuitive that the ropemaking should require the tanning skill first.

To be honest I see there old players complaining how much it is boring to make another new character. This could be true though.

I'm not really that old of a player. Played last world and didn't get all too far, both then and now it felt like a big "Gotta grind lp to do this before i can do anything else"

Which is neither fun, nor a good design choice.

[hitzu]

"Gotta grind lp to do this before i can do anything else"

Which is neither fun, nor a good design choice.

So then why was I helpful enough for my more skilled friends who began play earlier? I did simple but tedious work that consume time. For example tree chopping or carrying stuff. I kept light in the hearth and barrels full of water. At the moment I had only basic skills and yet I was helpful and my friends kept me feel important.

Basically you're asking to simplify your leveling. Go to WoW then. They sell instalevel.

[Sevenless]

It is a bit of a quandary. If you die, you're reduced to grunt work only for a fair while. But at the same time stripping the leveling process does indeed strip a sense of progress out of the game.

I've never found an appropriate answer to this question without trying to take permadeath out of the equation. And the devs are clear permadeath is to stay *shrugs*.

[Archiplex]

"Gotta grind lp to do this before i can do anything else"

Which is neither fun, nor a good design choice.

So then why was I helpful enough for my more skilled friends who began play earlier? I did simple but tedious work that consume time. For example tree chopping or carrying stuff. I kept light in the hearth and barrels full of water. At the moment I had only basic skills and yet I was helpful and my friends kept me feel important.

Basically you're asking to simplify your leveling. Go to WoW then. They sell instalevel.

Ancedotal experiences doesn't really prove that a system is flawed or not - for most people (Being hermits who live on their own and such, or even set up villages) the process just feels arbitrary. A newbie won't spot it as well as someone who's done it multiple times of course, but that charm of it leading you to "new" skills is lost after the first character, and in reality it's mostly because you don't understand the system in general.

And yes, simplifying leveling is a good thing, why are you arguing having a more complicated system is good, when the complication isn't productive at all?

Now, am I arguing that skills should be gone completely? Well not really. There are skills that are healthy design choices (Rites and such) and skills that are necessary to prevent abuse (Yeomanry, black skills) and finally, skills that are necessary to protect newbies from their own mistakes (Swimming) - but the rest of these don't have a good purpose or belonging

It is a bit of a quandary. If you die, you're reduced to grunt work only for a fair while. But at the same time stripping the leveling process does indeed strip a sense of progress out of the game.

I've never found an appropriate answer to this question without trying to take permadeath out of the equation. And the devs are clear permadeath is to stay *shrugs*.

Yeah, even if they are flawed the more difficult part is finding a way to remove them without eliminating the sense of progress (Although, that sense might stay still around due to discoveries?).

I'm really thinking that instead of spending LP for them, you could discover a 'key' item related to them - Silk eggs for silkmaking, flour for baking, any seed for farming and so forth. And the discovery of this item would yield the lore message, "You have discovered Sericulture" alongside the normal lore for sericulture, and perhaps a minor +xp boost.

The key item should be something basic to that field. Jewelry not unlocked until either gold or silver nuggets, etc etc. Though that system might not work for skills that overlap too much maybe? I figure there would be a simple way to tie a skill to an item anyhow.

[hitzu]

Ancedotal experiences doesn't really prove that a system is flawed or not - for most people (Being hermits who live on their own and such, or even set up villages) the process just feels arbitrary.

Excuse me, are we still speaking amout MMO? Or a singleplayer game?
The goal of the game is to provide a good experience for the groups of people, not making life of a solo hermit easier. Because "easier" means he or she faster ends up his/her game while having no social connections to prevent quitting being bored. There should be more personal specialization - that's how you can make yourself more valued for others. H&H though doesn't restrict anybody to become Jack of all trades, it's just a matter of time you invested. Reducing the amout of that time you reduce the value of a personal experience because there would be much less efforts invested.

And yes, simplifying leveling is a good thing

Someone, give the "WIN" button to that lady, please.

[Archiplex]

Ancedotal experiences doesn't really prove that a system is flawed or not - for most people (Being hermits who live on their own and such, or even set up villages) the process just feels arbitrary.

Excuse me, are we still speaking amout MMO? Or a singleplayer game?
The goal of the game is to provide a good experience for the groups of people, not making life of a solo hermit easier. Because "easier" means he or she faster ends up his/her game while having no social connections to prevent quitting being bored. There should be more personal specialization - that's how you can make yourself more valued for others.

Yeah, and I agree to this fully. The problem here is that the skills system doesn't accomplish either of these. It tacks on an additional "You need this before you CAN do anything" LP cost where the LP could instead be used to further yourself into one "skill" than having to be spent on the ability to do this skill at all- and in the end it doesn't allow you to 'specialize' at all since the end cost equates to around 20-30 points in a single ability regardless. The issue here is that it's a big cost for newbies starting the game, not that it interferes with socialization.

Someone, give the "WIN" button to that lady, please.

I'd prefer a real argument as to why we should have a more complicated system to do something that could (anbd arguably should) be done without the complication- considering it's a vital part of early game and we don't really want to confuse newbies.

[Coriander]

Good suggestion.

I can attest that the start of this game in particular needs some love.


I began playing this world as a hermit to see how the beginning of the game would flow and to prevent me from easily asking someone questions. I found myself stuck, often using the "Grand List of Simple Questions" thread for answers. I became rapidly frustrated with the current skill system as it was unclear how to unlock the skills I wanted, and I spent precious LP unlocking skills I would not need until much later, instead of enhancing my current abilities (skills) to a more useful level.

The proposed quest system may be a great way to clear this up. Many of the current skills could be dropped if a the chosen quest had the proper narrative. This could guide new players while also being optional for more experienced ones.