Prelude: World 16.2

[Regulus2424]

We need Shartvald, Handler and the proletariat revolution guy back ASAP

[_Scipio]

In haven you can buy a very good char most worlds for 20 euro. You can die with that char 5 or so times before it becomes worthless. Before you even account for the fact you're probably more than 100x more likely to die in EVE than haven, I'm pretty sure losing a ship worth more than 4 euros in EVE is normal

The mechanical impact of dying in haven is practically nothing, it's just an ego bruise. Just like with everybody else falling down this slippery slope no realistic amount of reduced penalty would fix your bruise.

You just don't know what you're talking about.

In EVE Online, there's a rule that everyone knows: never undock with something you can't afford to replace.

That's not possible in Hafen, at least not without heavy botting.

Sort of right, but wrong.

The equivalent of this advice for Haven and Hearth is possible; don't leave your village with your best cutting tool, blacksmith hammer, treeplanter's pot, etc.

Death has been made less impactful like 12 times by now

And yet it's still worse than EVE online ever was.

That depends on how you're measuring the loss. You could lose weeks of training time in eve under the old clone system, real money equivalent, game progression, etc. It's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.

The original point was "death is fun". Having 50% of one's progress wiped out in one extremely unlikely, random episode -- is not "fun". It's stupid and disruptive.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you though: as unlikely, seemingly random, unmitigated disasters can be very dramatic and engaging. In the context of EVE Online, some of the absolute best, most compelling stories and player-driven drama have come precisely from massive, painful losses that wiped out enormous amounts of progress for individuals, corporations, or entire coalitions. Take the Battle of B-R5RB in 2014. Sov dropped, 75 Titans destroyed, total losses around $300,000 USD in real money equivalent. It was an unmitigated disaster for the affected side, but it was also one of the coolest, most legendary moments in EVE.

one extremely unlikely, random episode

[LaserSaysPew]

The fact that most deaths in Haven are random, extremely rare BS you have no control over (as in, one on average may not even die once in a particular world, and when you do, it's almost always something stupid) -- it feels extremely dumb and punishing.

Something stupid like what? What are those uncontrollable deaths exactly?

In EVE Online, there's a rule that everyone knows: never undock with something you can't afford to replace.

That's not possible in Hafen, at least not without heavy botting.

What are those things you have to walk out with that you can't afford to replace?

[Halbertz]

You could lose weeks of training time

Idk how it's now, but piloting T3 was literally this. But who cares, lol.

In EVE Online, there's a rule that everyone knows: never undock with something you can't afford to replace.

That's not possible in Hafen, at least not without heavy botting.

What are you goin to loss in haven? Nettle pants? If you are talking about being drowned it's skill issue. But even if this happened you can return like 85% of stats with current system in couple of hours.
And crying about botting while having EvE online mentioned few words before is kinda weird.

[_Scipio]

You could lose weeks of training time

Idk how it's now, but piloting T3 was literally this. But who cares, lol.

Ya afaik T3 subsystems is the only way you lose SP now in Eve. I never really flew t3 except for jackdaws as alliance doctrine.

[vatas]

You could lose weeks of training time

Idk how it's now, but piloting T3 was literally this. But who cares, lol.

Ya afaik T3 subsystems is the only way you lose SP now in Eve. I never really flew t3 except for jackdaws as alliance doctrine.

I don't know how SP loss works currently, but they did get rid off having to buy a new clone body every time you died (and upgrading it if you hit the SP limit on the one you bought) a long time ago. Other than the fact that it could result in extreme punishment for a minor mistake/forgetfulness, it also added a flat fee to a loss (if pod-killed) which made it less feasible to fly cheap ships in PvP.

A more useful EVE Online comparison, perhaps: take out a ship that's the Haven equivalent of nettle gear set, sprucecap and clogs, and still be at least somewhat useful part of an actual PvP gang and learn PvP by doing PvP.
(T1 frigate that the interceptors are based on, cheapest MWD or Afterburner, Warp Disruptor or Warp Scrambler, should total for less than one million ISK. For a comparison, the 'Jackdaw' mentioned in quotes costs 70m for the hull alone.)

Also see this thread - while EVE is hardly a gold standard in onboarding new players (they're shuttering an official Wiki for like the second time in favour for an LLM assistant?) They had at least one major update where the game became so much more intuitive/easier to figure out, mostly by just making the UI better (Better widgets for aggression timers, with explanatory tooltips. Even something comparable to 'Toggle Criminal Acts' but better because there's three settings and not two: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Safety_settings )

[widelec_szatana]

I don't know how SP loss works currently

It doesnt, removed even from t3 ships.

A more useful EVE Online comparison, perhaps: take out a ship that's the Haven equivalent of nettle gear set, sprucecap and clogs, and still be at least somewhat useful part of an actual PvP gang and learn PvP by doing PvP.)

Not really, and depends on what you mean by "actual PvP". They can work only if you have a lot of them and they die the moment something looks at them. Also in eve you can do things from a distance in haven not so much.
With "sprucecap set" you do no openings, no damage, all you can do is maybe push and bodyblock why even bother with gear and stats, just make 10 naked alts.

"My hearthling was fit with the following..."

[Halbertz]

Not really, and depends on what you mean by "actual PvP". They can work only if you have a lot of them and they die the moment something looks at them. Also in eve you can do things from a distance in haven not so much.
With "sprucecap set" you do no openings, no damage, all you can do is maybe push and bodyblock why even bother with gear and stats, just make 10 naked alts.

"My hearthling was fit with the following..."

Debatable. Indeed you can't put 2x senson damper and be annoying from 80 km in haven but there are still options: put some bronze plate and shield and you will OpK same as any other char. With shield up insane stance U you won't be that easy to be opened (consider you defend yourself).
But I totally agree that we need more options in pvp. @Jorb could you CONSIDER please?

[Chacer]

Starting everyone on the same central continent was definitely a good decision. I'd also make the world smaller. It's just too big for the number of players there are. And please announce the new world on social media. It's a shame that a game with so much potential is still so unknown.

[rstar]

Starting everyone on the same central continent was definitely a good decision. I'd also make the world smaller. It's just too big for the number of players there are. And please announce the new world on social media. It's a shame that a game with so much potential is still so unknown.

Ohhh ummm I completely agree with this player, and making the world smaller already would be great!! You can spend hours and hours without seeing anyone, and I need to kill people!!! I like seeing people cry when I kill them. it feels like a damn farming game with everyone locked up like pigs. More PvP, for fuck’s sake.

I look at you and destroy you