★R-18 ★ Prostitution Law

[Dondy]

thanks all for your comments and sharing!

You can argue this point but the comfort women did not volunteer so each time they were used it was act of rape.

let me put it short for now, what japanese politicians are trying to say is that the system itself was not supposed to involve abductions and rapes, and such actions were not proven to be done by the state order. they have already apologized and been saying sorry about the horrible events actually happened but they cannot apologize to the way it has been accused of, unless its proven. like, just because some terrorists happened to be canadians, canada the country itself does not apologize for the terrorism events caused by canadians unless the canadian gov ordered them to, right?

I know very little about this matter. It seems to me that the military and the state are obliged to apologize either because the forced prostitution was organized by them, or because it was organized by people who were under military orders even if they did it without their officers knowing. All that being said, I think that in many ways a worse thing was done by the civilians afterwards who did not treat the comfort women as a special kind of war victim. If they had been able to go back to ordinary lives and doing the things they wanted and had been supported in their recovery the way other people who lost houses, or were wounded or lost family members and friends were supported, then what happened would not have been so sad. People who looked down on the comfort women and thought of them as dirty and perhaps as collaborators were accessories after the fact in the crime. (Metaphor - not literally)

Neither would I want to lay blame of who was more responsible - the military, the government, the civilians. The only practical question is what can be done to heal wounds. it doesn't matter who hurt you. It matters if it can be ensure that it will not happen again and that you will be healed as much as possible. If for example people in Canada created a fund for these women and said, we are sorry this happened and we would be appalled and damaged if it happened to us, so here is money to try to help, that would be a good thing. And also if people in Japan, and Korea and China did the same thing. Restitution does not imply taking blame. Blame is such a very nit-picking thing. To start quarreling over who set a fire is an impediment to putting the fire out. If restitution is an international thing then it will help prevent people saying, "That could never happen here. Our soldiers would never do a thing like that."

If you want to work from the standpoint that it was necessary to get sexual relief for the soldiers, it still remains that the military could have found other ways of getting sexual services for the soldiers. They could have tried to recruit prostitutes either from people already in that field or people they offered to pay.

that is how the imperial army back then (was believed to have) meant doing. of course, nobody is naive enough to say it went well. of course many took advantage of the system and just went ahead with abductions and forcing girls from basically everywhere. maybe people knew what was happening and just closed their eyes and tried not to touch it. its just like how some countries prohibit prostitutions yet still been carried out everywhere.

[pyrale]

Turn a crime into a Job and all those prostitute will have rights and protections.
Leave it as it is now and all those prostitute will be just slaves as they are now.

It's not a matter of moralism. It' just to have the courage to see the reality and fight it with the best choise for the slaves.
Being moralist is just a way to blabling and don't change nothing. Those poor woman will be forced, also if we moralize a lot.
So, honestly, is better give them a job, an associacion, rights, house where works, controls about theyr status etc. All what we have for right that they can't have.

The real solution to a problem isn't to close your eyes and legalize it. In the countries that legalized prostitution, it's still a job you don't choose, and it's still a job linked to criminal business. Maybe less so than in other countries, but still. Also the problem isn't only legal. It has deep social roots, and these can't be solved by law. And yes, it's also means banning prostitution alone won't solve the problem. You need to educate people on the matter, on top of it.

that men have very hard time holding their craving for sex in general.
if you have no problems behaving, hurray to you! but can you say all men can do that as you can?
as a female, i cannot tell what men think cause ive never been one. (thats why im asking here!)

the point is that we all know many men cannot fight against sex in normal situations (look at all those sex scandals) and we still expect male soldiers to fight it at war front.

Yes, actually, they can, millions of men prove it every day. The ones that can't are actually having medical problems, and they're receiving medical care in the countries that can afford it. But well, we can keep pretending that men don't choose where they put their bladder and that women can't resist a shopping session, and that they're meant to be in a kitchen. Stripping responsibilities from people is not a solution.

it is true its hard to leave the job once you get into, but in japan, prostitution has become a job you get to choose. it may surprise you, but at least, as of late, forced prostitutions are minority afaik. (unless you happen to marry a pimp without knowing so.) i find it sad, but many young girls decide to work in sex industry for easy way out. a friend of mine had a perfect job after passing so many hard exams and she still quit her job and went into sex industry and said she fit better.
(i do know there are many forced prostitutions in the world, as there were in japan.)

I would be very curious to learn about the social origin of japanese prostitute cohorts. Somehow, I think I know the answer already.
But statistic anomalies such as your friend will always be a convenient way out of solving the problem.

one thing, pyrale, you seem to think discussion is where you are supposed to find someone to offend, but its not making you look any good
fyi, i never voted for this guy or anyone in his party. and in general, politicians here all suck hard and crave for power anyways.

And yet you defend him. I'm sorry that you feel offended, but at the same time, one has to stand for his opinions.

[Tonkyhonk]

-snip-

could you edit your post so that i can easily see what main point is?

Yes, actually, they can, millions of men prove it every day. The ones that can't are actually having medical problems, and they're receiving medical care in the countries that can afford it. But well, we can keep pretending that men don't choose where they put their bladder and that women can't resist a shopping session, and that they're meant to be in a kitchen. Stripping responsibilities from people is not a solution.

you are right that we should not be stuck with stereotypes.
still, do you mean that we are supposed to blame all those big numbers of soldiers individually who actually had committed the horrible crimes at war for their mental problems? werent they all (or most) tested before being sent to wars? or is it just a coincidence that they only happened to be crazy and not because of the extraordinary conditions? how can you be so sure that you could stay sane yet keep on murdering "enemies" but stay away from all the other craziness when you were to be under such condition? you mean the americans who lived in old Salem witch trial days happened to be just crazy and it would not have happened in france? what about all those historical moral panics or mass hysteria happened in europe or all those KKK mess in the states? was it all because they were mentally ill and each only needed mental care accordingly?

I would be very curious to learn about the social origin of japanese prostitute cohorts. Somehow, I think I know the answer already.
But statistic anomalies such as your friend will always be a convenient way out of solving the problem.

The old believe everything: the middle-aged suspect everything: the young know everything.

if you want to call it an anomaly or exception, its your choice. i guess all the prostitutes in your country are miserably forced while it is legal merely for the governments convenience if what you say actually does represent how france is.

And yet you defend him. I'm sorry that you feel offended, but at the same time, one has to stand for his opinions.

i dont think i am defending him, and im sorry if i sound like so, but trying to bring up a topic from what he said for a discussion.

[borka]

While looking deeper into this has been confirmed for me: you can't compare (the history of) "Prostitution" in Japan with that in European (or European cultural influenced) countries...

Sure with all that Globalisation going on it's manifestation becoming alike...

Anways there will never be a solution to this dilemma in humanism...

Endgame: Feminists (have all upper class) vs organised sex working Women

Too bad: women are humans too

[Flame]

The real solution to a problem isn't to close your eyes and legalize it. In the countries that legalized prostitution, it's still a job you don't choose, and it's still a job linked to criminal business.

If you prostitute yourself but isn't your choise, with legalization you can Denounce it without go in jail. Actually, if you prostituite youself and it's not legalized, you tell it to police and they arrest YOU and the boss.
...well.
Give a chanche to jail some bad guy with a Real law and legalization isn't that bad. It defende who don't wanna prostituite.
And yet, there are people that agree to prostituite, 'cuz it's just a job and also an hard one.

Anyway i agree that prostitution in japan and in europe were two different things since the past times. but not SO different. There was a time where the two cultures were similar about the "have relax".

[Tonkyhonk]

now i wonder what kind of "differences" you guys are seeing ...

[Flame]

Because of church infulence, prostitution become a sin really early, compared to oriental cultures. A sin become an illegal pratique and criminality grow more on proibite things, so only few woman can live as a "Company Woman" and have a respectfull life.
Most of them are street slaves and nothing else.

In oriental cultures this wasn't a sin and there where more harlot than slaves. So was less dangerous being a prostitute.


Anyway...
In both side of the world, when ther's a war, there are beast soldiers that fuck everything that moves. Feeling like they'r gonna die tomorrow and oppressed by the terror, they loose theyr rules, humanity and morality and do what's nearest instinct they can. Lots of them will regret it for all the life, if they'll survive.
That's a War fault (and choose to be soldier fault too.) This have NOTHING to do with the prostitution in the streets.

So basically are two different arguments and situations. On the first one, oriental countryes and occidental countryes had a big difference. More respect for the prostitute and less criminality on asia. Less respect and more ciminality on europe/america.
Now that difference is probably almost gone 'cuz the cultures are all pretty similar.

[Tonkyhonk]

ah, okay, flame, i guess i got a bit over-excited at this war victim thing and went off track a bit too much.

so, am i correct to say that you think prostitution should be legalized to save those forced prostitutes from the business?

considering how FGM has been going on in some areas in the world, i see that many people see sex as a sin or vice, especially with abrahamic religions. i wonder if it was very different pre-abraham in europe and considered to be barbaric.
(of course, japan may be just unique, like the oldest classic novel we have is a love romance written by a female writer, which is basically about this handsome boy's love affairs, seducing and sleeping around noble girls.)

one thing you should not mistake is that the danger and risk you take for being involved in prostitutions is probably not so different everywhere. i wouldnt say we have "more respect and less criminality" here, but hell, i have no idea how they are in other places anyways and cannot compare. people are probably more open about it though. at least, sex is for both men and women, not just one-way leisure for men to toy women as tools, and prostitutes are not always women. (not meaning gays, i mean there are women who buy male prostitutes, and i think they exist in other countries too.)

as a side note, i find this should-be-legal/illegal talk interesting, especially considering how that infamous american prohibition law on alcohol appeared and ended, and how marijuana are being legalized lately in the states. so far, "taxing" seems to be the most convincing reasoning for recent new legalizations in america.

[painhertz]

so far, "taxing" seems to be the most convincing reasoning for recent new legalizations in america.

Not really although that will likely be a windfall. The Baby Boomer Generation is giving way to Gen X and we (Gen X) have always been more disposed to drug culture in general. In other words, the old farts who were in control for the last 20-30 years had that whole "marijauana is a dangerous drug" crap hammered into their heads, we on the other hands tried it and dfound out that that's bullshit.

[pyrale]

still, do you mean that we are supposed to blame all those big numbers of soldiers individually who actually had committed the horrible crimes at war for their mental problems?

Yes, I do blame them. You should look at the numbers, it's not like every single soldier goes for a rape on the first girl they see, in modern armies.
Also, was I not to blame them, I would certainly blame their education, their trainers or their lax command. That's the difference between trying to solve a problem and saying "All men are potential rapists, we can't help it, prepare your vagina".

you mean the americans who lived in old Salem witch trial days happened to be just crazy and it would not have happened in france? what about all those historical moral panics or mass hysteria happened in europe or all those KKK mess in the states? was it all because they were mentally ill and each only needed mental care accordingly?

The French probably have as much blood on their hands as anyone else, maybe more. We have countless problems, but there's one thing I'm happy we have : the ability to look at ourselves (as well as others) in a critic fashion.

You're talking about all the problems in Europe and in the states. Do you want to know why some of them and many others were solved ? Because some people stood up and said "No matter how, this has to change".

if you want to call it an anomaly or exception, its your choice. i guess all the prostitutes in your country are miserably forced while it is legal merely for the governments convenience if what you say actually does represent how france is.

http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/v ... b0c&skip=0
I'm not giving the link as a definite proof, but as the result of a shallow inquiry by myself, merely to refute your "all is well in japanese brothels". Again, I would be very interested in knowing more about the conditions of work for this business in Japan and I have no set idea about it, but when it comes to the social origin of prostitutes in japan, I would be very surprised if I learnt it was different from anywhere else.

As I said, it is not legal in france, even though there is an illegal industry there. I'm not saying the legal problem is a solution aswell (like most social problems, education is the key). But simply denying there's a problem and encouraging people to support such an industry is certainly not going to solve anything.