Alternatives to pay to win

[cyrus9586]

I have an idea.

If you're not sure about this game, play it for free and casually.

If you decide you like the game enough to want to play it competitively then f***ing support it.

+1

[omocho]

Not replying to anyone specific, but nobody can deny that there are advantages to paid players. What we completely disagree on is how big the advantage is

Well we disagree because people who understand basic 5th grade math can figure out that the 'advantage' is pretty minimal aside from the convenience of faster actions. The FEP and I assume LP advantage drop off very quickly. You start requiring such a significant amount to level that, yes it obviously helps, but you still start slowing down more and more. Meaning people can catch up to you easily. At work so too lazy to do the math but suffice to say if it to say you catch up on a large portion of someones progress very easily because it gets harder and harder and slower to level.
Most pacing in this game is dictated by real time as well. So you can a significantly higher advantage simply playing the game and using your time optimally.

The biggest concern making people more OP than you is time. You should be terrified of those villains with more time than you.

What I don't get is why people who have no qualms with the current system would go out of there way to debate this. So you are OK with the current system, therefor you are actively resisting a more-fair system?

Because the current system is fine? and just because your F2P crybaby opinion says otherwise doesn't change the facts.
There really is no "better" option. The only two other options would be to make the game subscription based, killing it instantly. Or to sell more P2W items in the shop.
There is no other magic solution. The small convenience they sell is the best option for game balance while still providing support for the game. Oh and just for fun your quote works hilariously well if you replace some words
"What I don't get is why people who have qualms with Hitler would go out of their way to debate this. So you aren't OK with his regime, therefor you are actively resisting a more-fair system? "
I lol'd anyway.

This debate about the current system will never end, but what can happen is those of us who care can think of a more satisfying system. And who knows it might even be more profitable than before.

Please kind wizard, invent a new way with your magic. So far all you've done is whine about how unfair the system is for you and cry that people are providing valid counter points. You've done and provided nothing on this topic.

I for one DO care, and I'd like to return to brainstorming as was the purpose of this thread to begin with.

I believe brainstorming requires something you may be lacking currently. Especially since you haven't done any yet.

[shadyg0d]

"What I don't get is why people who have qualms with Hitler would go out of their way to debate this. So you aren't OK with his regime, therefor you are actively resisting a more-fair system? "

I'm utterly speechless. I have tried several times to type an argument but I just can't wrap my head around that statement. You just completely blew my mind with that metaphor which is so logical that my 4th grade education cannot even begin comprehend.

[xTrainx]

godwins law have been summoned, i request a mod to hel this thread

[Glorthan]

I have an idea.

If you're not sure about this game, play it for free and casually.

If you decide you like the game enough to want to play it competitively then f***ing support it.

Instead of playing it 300 hours in a month play 299 hours in a month and spend 1 hour mowing the neighbor's f***ing lawn.

Jesus Christ.

this.

[shadyg0d]

godwins law have been summoned, i request a mod to hel this thread

lol. I am OK with this going to hel. I could do without feeling pressured to explain the same things over and over. Fucking drama

I have an idea.

If you're not sure about this game, play it for free and casually.

If you decide you like the game enough to want to play it competitively then f***ing support it.

Instead of playing it 300 hours in a month play 299 hours in a month and spend 1 hour mowing the neighbor's f***ing lawn.

Jesus Christ.

this.

You guys are completely missing the point. It has nothing to do with it being too expensive. If the game is free most players will not pay, and they will be disadvantaged which leads to the game only being competitive to a small group of people.

But really I'm done debating. I cannot be arsed to argue about this any more. You win, I guess

[cyrus9586]

If the game is free most players will not pay, and they will be disadvantaged which leads to the game only being competitive to a small group of people.

No if the game is free then they can't keep it going so HnH closes. My whole argument to your point has been your definition of P2W. Since you can't throw endless amount of money to get endless ∞Q gear you can't really pay to win. Others have also added what I had been saying the whole time. ALL paying does is save you TIME. If you put the time and hard work into the game you can catch up to anyone who has payed due to diminished returns and you have just sat there and said WE NEED SOMETHING NEW! without offering a strong argument that a change is needed or to offer another system that would work better.

Also I want a to see a quick tally of those who actually play COMPETITIVELY. Raiders and factions. That's about it. But those groups already will be botting and making massive farms etc to jump way ahead and I'm willing to bet most of them don't pay for the game. Main accounts probably. But not the 25 bot alts they have. your biggest argument would have been stop botting over This game is P2W.

[shadyg0d]

My whole argument to your point has been your definition of P2W

That's why I said in my first post "This thread is not for debating what "pay to win" means". It was my mistake ever using the term to begin with. It has a negative stigma and no concrete definition. All it did was derail the entire thread. I'm used to using "pay to win" sort of as a scale of 1 to 10, with haven being maybe a 2. Your definition is that a game is either pay to win or not pay to win, or that in order to be p2w you must gain more and more benefits every time you pay. Again, it's a pointless argument and I should have never brought it up.

"This thread is for everyone who is disatisfied with the current system providing unfair benefits to unworthy players."
I thought saying that would clarify exactly what this was about and prevent this from becoming an argument over the meaning of a phrase used in different contexts. I should have known better but I guess I expected more from this forum.

ALL paying does is save you TIME. If you put the time and hard work into the game you can catch up to anyone who has payed

This argument is invalid unless the person who payed has less time/skill. If the two people are equally skilled then the paying player wins.

your biggest argument would have been stop botting

That's a completely different topic and I am against botting like most players are. I'm don't expect a perfect world where everything is completely fair. I was just trying to make things better in an area I thought could be improved. I have no idea how to stop botting aside from a program that detects common patterns among bot players. I (and most players) have no idea what patterns that would be, or how to program something like that. I think it's much more likely that players might have a good idea for marketing/monetization, and that was the purpose of this thread.



Anways. After thinking about it reading this thread maybe it's not as big a deal as I thought it was. I still think something more fair would be better if possible, and even jorb agrees(based on what little he said about it on the stream). Still, I am feeling really excited for the new world and have decided to play. While it doesn't feel right paying for an advantage, since I want to compete with the top players and support development, I am going to pay. Hopefully this thread has sparked some thinking and we can come up with a better system in the future.

[cyrus9586]

I've quoted it. I've stated it. This is like trying to prove how old the earth is to a Christian Scientist. So I will go ahead and try ONE last time.

WORLD TEN'S COMBAT RELATED STATS WILL BE CAPPED TO 999

NO ONE can become stronger then ANYONE else for long. The person who pays will get there FASTER and nothing else. The proven fact here is diminished returns. Eventually the bonuses will be moot as it will shave off only seconds of the time needed for another gain. All the while those who work hard will be catching up. Sure you may end up on top for a little while but unless you round up and kill ALL the others working to catch up to you eventually people will be on your level. Again in the end all paying does is save you time.

Your argument was more valid for W9 after stat cap removal but not anymore.

[shadyg0d]

Getting to 999 takes a while. Most players don't even make it to 999. But let's say a free player has 600 MC and the paid player has 999 MC. The 999 will probably beat the 600. Your argument is only valid if these 2 players never encounter each other in the time it takes the free player to catch up.

It's much easier to be the first person to make it to the top. It's much harder to reach the top when the person on top is dropping boulders on your head. This applies to everything in life including the mad dash for stats/resources at the beginning of the world. Not only can the much stronger player repeatedly kill you so that you never catch up, they can use their power to deprive you of precious resources used to catch up. They can be the first to form trade monopolies. They can leverage their strength diplomatically to gain support from factions who would never accept you. The possibilities are endless.

You're also not taking into account things like weapon/armor/food/etc quality which are a result of LP spent on non-combat stats. Non-combat stats still effect the outcome of a battle significantly.

This is like trying to prove how old the earth is to a Christian Scientist

I feel the same way. It's not nearly as simple as you're trying to make it.