Pre-Announcement: Siege Changes

[LadyGoo]

[stya]

How about we fucking work on what happens when a raid is successful before making it possible to be successful for a change you know the fucking consequences of damn raids. You all trying to fix an unfixable system that results in total destruction.

Just implement a wall jump system with related counters:
-the more attackers the easier they are to be detected and once detected massive penalties including damage over time,
-no armor while scaling walls,
-use stats for automatic detection, also if a real person sees you he can press a button and do a manual detection
-guard dogs,
-traps,
-locks for valuables,
-can only attack people you have scents of without being detected, still allows assassination if the desire is big enough but it would be damn risky
-cooldown on attempts as well as an expensive skill,
-make it so people who are under wall jump temporary status can't check the quality of ANY items or buildings so they have to steal random crap,
-if raiders get detected they leave scents so you can go wall jump them right back, no detection no scents (only applies to theft; vandalism and assault will always auto detect)
-trying to destroy anything is instant detection (again worth it if it's the top q tree (which you found out through regular detective/spy work) or their best kiln/smelter)
-once you do get detected it's beeline towards nearest wall out of the damn thing or you will die, after all villages should have more people than the limited number a raider party would be able to pull off rather than the gamey and retarded inverse situation metagaming gets us with attackers always outnumbering defenders if they get to choose the time of attack

This would give a loooot more interaction and back and forth than the current system, criminals would be vulnerable and less permanent crime would be more encouraged. It would open up new skills like lockpicking and trap placement/disarming; stealth would be much more valuable. Petty crime will once again have a chance.

And after that if you reaaaaaaly want a siege system you can have one. The raider fags won't be able to complain that siege too hard they can't be criminals game too carebear. It should be stupidly expensive for the attackers because it would be damn permanent.

Remember you want more than the raider faggot factions to play the game or do you?

I'm sorry but a lot of your propositions can be easily countered by alts/small bots or town design. If there is a cooldown between attempts, what will you do against a double pali for example?
If you take out the cd then you can just ignore walls from pretty much any small village/hermit. What will happen when big factions have 50 wall jumpers? What if I block the area nearby walls? Lots of edge cases and abuse possibilities...

Also this Yeah:

[Granger]

Avu has a point: Not much sense in fixing (in terms of making it easy) a meachanic that will, when used, just lead to total destruction and rage quits.

[Potjeh]

Siege is still binary, therefore still shit. Making it easier to do will only result in loss of what little casual population you managed to gather recently. I think status quo, as bad as it is, is still preferable.

[LadyGoo]

I think status quo, as bad as it is, is still preferable.

Nope. If devs won't implement points of conflict, as an alternative, W9 will end up in the same way as W8: empty, boring, lifeless. It's not that raiders made it that empty. We would stumble across well-established but completely abandoned settlements last world. It's not like they were raided. They have quit because there was nothing else to do.

Right now the world has reached the critical point, when all the middle-tier villages have reached the end-game stuff. There is nothing else to do but grind quality nowadays, unless you wanna suicide your character in a meaningless encounter. Even the trade is stale, since devs screwed up with quality development system as well (trees do not grow over the cap, good quality resourse nodes are not rare at all, farming sucks, mining at level 5 brings you at the same level as top villages and etc.).

Put all the mouses in a place where they do not have to struggle and survive, and they'll all die eventually (quit).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM

[Patchouli_Knowledge]

Is it possible to implement a zone of control element as a siege system? The issue with siege is that once you pierce through the wall, then the attacker has access to whatever the defender has that isn't recursively walled which also echoes the boolean result that attacking vs villages has.

As for Ladygoo's statement about interaction and trade notably becoming stale, how was the reception to exclusively regional resources?

[Thedrah]

yeah, binary is a good way to describe siege atm. either win or lose, no real inbetween or tug of war
maybe if we actually built large factions there could be more tug of war but people take a long time to get up to speed

a lot of raiding is just to troll or lulz

[jordancoles]

I would have to agree with avu that before we make it easier to get in we also need to consider what that means exactly. Should the base be taken to zero once inside? How much damage is enough to satisfy the raiders while at the same time ensuring that not so much damage is done that the victims see no reason to rebuild?

Personally, I feel like combat changes would be better than siege ATM but oh well

[Fostik]

In my opinion there must be 2 type of siege: onslaught and strategic
Onslaught: You just bash wall, steal people, kill goods, rape animals - as always.
Strategic: Like strategic bombing in ww2, you just destroy things in enemy plot. F.e. ruining steel crucibles/silk house/cheese house or any warehouse will make a hight struck to enemy playing condition.

[MrBunzy]

As far as the actual specifics of the proposed changes, I think it will at least be an improvement over what we currently have to work with. People seem to think everything will be destroyed if the attackers manage to break down a wall, but between alt vaults and alt villages I can't imagine the defenders losing much of value in a siege. Losing a tree farm might be annoying, but pretty much anything else can be easily transported between villages or hidden. Really the only reason to raid someone would be to waste their time by making them juggle stuff around, and this isn't especially worthwhile if you weigh it against the requirements.

A concern I have with this system is how easy it is to make a village versus how difficult it is to destroy. Making a village idol costs 30k lp and some bones, but knocking it down costs 40+ brimstone, countless vandal scents, and hours of work? I'd like to see the entire village system scaled up more, so that to have the full protection of a shield would actually require investment. Its ridiculously easy to set up palisaded vidols, and it's never going to be worth sieging them if the minimum requirements to do so are so high.

Also, the entire system seems to rely very heavily on brimstone, and with the way resource nodes work I'm not sure it will end well. The 40 brimstone minimum listed in the OP sounds incredibly difficult for even an active group to collect, and if we've learned anything from salt it's that resource nodes can easily be monopolized by those who care enough to spam vidols and palisades. If resource spawning and collection arn't changed I don't think anyone but the largest groups will have access to siege.