Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby SnuggleSnail » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:57 pm

ItsFunToLose wrote:It's hilarious to me that the same people bitching at the 99% of the playerbase for being dogshit ignorant morons for not understanding how pvp works are the same autists who complain that the playerbase takes a nosedive and there's no one for them to raid after 3 months as if they aren't the direct cause of it. Like parasites killing the host until both are dead. There's joy in chasing spruce caps and taking their shit and throwing it into the water, bashing their walls, and loading up chests of low quality leather and cloth and wax until there aren't any more sprucecaps willing to actually play the game with you.


It is probably easier to implement mechanics that raise the average skill of the players to equalize the 99% and the 1% a bit as opposed to trying to change human nature.
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby ItsFunToLose » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:06 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:
ItsFunToLose wrote:It's hilarious to me that the same people bitching at the 99% of the playerbase for being dogshit ignorant morons for not understanding how pvp works are the same autists who complain that the playerbase takes a nosedive and there's no one for them to raid after 3 months as if they aren't the direct cause of it. Like parasites killing the host until both are dead. There's joy in chasing spruce caps and taking their shit and throwing it into the water, bashing their walls, and loading up chests of low quality leather and cloth and wax until there aren't any more sprucecaps willing to actually play the game with you.


It is probably easier to implement mechanics that raise the average skill of the players to equalize the 99% and the 1% a bit as opposed to trying to change human nature.


The average skill of players in this game increases with every hat you have extorted. Every player who quits brings the player base one step closer to you masturbating by youself in a corner to how many digits the stats on your meteoring has.
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby Zentetsuken » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:19 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:
ItsFunToLose wrote:It's hilarious to me that the same people bitching at the 99% of the playerbase for being dogshit ignorant morons for not understanding how pvp works are the same autists who complain that the playerbase takes a nosedive and there's no one for them to raid after 3 months as if they aren't the direct cause of it. Like parasites killing the host until both are dead. There's joy in chasing spruce caps and taking their shit and throwing it into the water, bashing their walls, and loading up chests of low quality leather and cloth and wax until there aren't any more sprucecaps willing to actually play the game with you.


It is probably easier to implement mechanics that raise the average skill of the players to equalize the 99% and the 1% a bit as opposed to trying to change human nature.


"Easier" is a very subjective and tricky term here and it's where I start to really disagree.

Would it be easy to fix Haven and make it a game that retains population, makes pvp fun for more people and makes the game accessible for more people to engage in more activities, putting it onpar with more traditional and modern games? Maybe.

Do you honestly and genuinely believe that this is going to happen? If you say yes I think you are being dishonest.

If we want to talk about fixing the game we have to be realistic. The most realistic way to make the game more accessible to more people, to retain population, interest more people in more aspects of the game is to simply remove pvp.

We can and have all suggested alternatives before, we have spent real time and effort brainstorming together, coming up with magnificent and honest-to-god amazing ideas for this game. The unfortunate truth is that the game is developed by only 2 people who lack a clear vision and understanding of their own creation that doesn't seem to dovetail with the general wishes of the players very often.

It's time for the development of this game to start steering in a more realistic direction.

Remove PVP from the core game. If possible, revisit it later or develop it within the confines of valhalla.

It's literally just that easy.
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby ItsFunToLose » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:27 pm

Zentetsuken wrote:
SnuggleSnail wrote:
ItsFunToLose wrote:It's hilarious to me that the same people bitching at the 99% of the playerbase for being dogshit ignorant morons for not understanding how pvp works are the same autists who complain that the playerbase takes a nosedive and there's no one for them to raid after 3 months as if they aren't the direct cause of it. Like parasites killing the host until both are dead. There's joy in chasing spruce caps and taking their shit and throwing it into the water, bashing their walls, and loading up chests of low quality leather and cloth and wax until there aren't any more sprucecaps willing to actually play the game with you.


It is probably easier to implement mechanics that raise the average skill of the players to equalize the 99% and the 1% a bit as opposed to trying to change human nature.


"Easier" is a very subjective and tricky term here and it's where I start to really disagree.

Would it be easy to fix Haven and make it a game that retains population, makes pvp fun for more people and makes the game accessible for more people to engage in more activities, putting it onpar with more traditional and modern games? Maybe.

Do you honestly and genuinely believe that this is going to happen? If you say yes I think you are being dishonest.

If we want to talk about fixing the game we have to be realistic. The most realistic way to make the game more accessible to more people, to retain population, interest more people in more aspects of the game is to simply remove pvp.

We can and have all suggested alternatives before, we have spent real time and effort brainstorming together, coming up with magnificent and honest-to-god amazing ideas for this game. The unfortunate truth is that the game is developed by only 2 people who lack a clear vision and understanding of their own creation that doesn't seem to dovetail with the general wishes of the players very often.

It's time for the development of this game to start steering in a more realistic direction.

Remove PVP from the core game. If possible, revisit it later or develop it within the confines of valhalla.

It's literally just that easy.



This is dumber than anything I've seen anyone else post today. Congratulations.

Removing PvP is such a fundamentally cancerous idea, I pray you never have to witness what that would actually do to this game.

Do you really think removing player combat will remove the griefer's heart? Their desire to hurt others? Their lust for power and control? The raw hunger for pain? They will find ever more creative ways to ruin your day and shit in your cereal.

Many of the players who found and started playing this game, did so knowing full well that it was a permadeath full loot pvp sandbox, and the thrill and excitement of exploring the world came with risks.

Violence is the only thing that will ever keep a griefer in check. viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710 Even if you don't agree with every word written there, it's a great starting point to have a discussion about what PvP means in a sandbox world.

PvP doesn't have to be fair or balanced. It doesn't have to be good. It doesn't even have to make sense. But it has to exist.

You seem like a good person. And good people are so fucking ignorant to just how many hoops the broken and the damned are willing to jump through to share their pain with you. They can't imagine why someone would ever make 50 alts, just because players are now considered immovable, unbreakable objects. or why they might claim a ring of land around your base, just to put it inside of a giant ballsack and matching cock palisade. ahh ahh ahh, you didn't say the magic word. ahh ahh ahh.
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby Potjeh » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:16 pm

I'm not saying that running should be removed, just that the result should be resolved faster. In Rust if you try to run they'll slow down to take aim at you, and you either get killed or you reach cover and you've effectively escaped. It's not a protracted endeavor.

But in general, if you want people to fight instead of just try to run away, the rewards for winning a fight need to be a lot closer to the penalty for losing one.
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby DonVelD » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:29 pm

ItsFunToLose wrote:The average skill of players in this game increases with every hat you have extorted. Every player who quits brings the player base one step closer to you masturbating by youself in a corner to how many digits the stats on your meteoring has.

its rly funny to me that you're pissing shidding cumming from anger yet this meteoring screenshot was from AD while snail goes out of his way to wear absolute dogshit gear & still kicks your worthless ass
just say that you hate the player not the game and kill yourself (in haven of course haha) from envy or something lmao
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby ItsFunToLose » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:32 pm

DonVelD wrote:
ItsFunToLose wrote:The average skill of players in this game increases with every hat you have extorted. Every player who quits brings the player base one step closer to you masturbating by youself in a corner to how many digits the stats on your meteoring has.

its rly funny to me that you're pissing shidding cumming from anger yet this meteoring screenshot was from AD while snail goes out of his way to wear absolute dogshit gear & still kicks your worthless ass
just say that you hate the player not the game and kill yourself (in haven of course haha) from envy or something lmao


Is that English you think you're speaking? Snail's dope af, I'm not mad at anyone, and I'll kill myself in real life when I'm good and ready.
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby jorb » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:44 pm

Our ambition has never been to create a PvP game. Our ambition has always been to create a game with PvP. There's a huge difference.

I have never claimed to be good at PvP, nor even particularly interested in it for its own, competitive, sake, but I love the fact that interacting with other players in game has a real sense of danger and adventure to it. I have had so many memorable moments of playing incognito, meeting other players, and the threat or actuality of violence has been very important to almost all of them.

(The stranger danger I've felt when encountering people while rummaging through old ruins, that time me and another guy stole eachother's boats and fired bows at eachother across a river, or even the hesitancy with which you interact even with the 90% of people who ultimately aren't out to kill you, &c).

That was always the vision, the game has always -- even with dumber rulesets than the ones in place now -- delivered on that, and that's why I have wanted to have a game with PvP. My skillset is not primarily in balancing the exactitudes of how it plays out, and I do indeed lack both the experience to do that properly, the real, burning interest (as I do not use these systems much myself), and, frankly, the time. I do not really want to fight -- I want to play a fairly casual survival/gardening/walking simulator RPG with a touch of poetry -- but the potential for fighting is important to me, as it relates to the game having real, tangible consequences.

  • I do not use the PvP systems often enough to have very informed opinions on the details of them.
  • The set of possible PvP rulesets is almost boundless, and even very tiny adjustments within one particular paradigm (specific drying timers, specific soak values, specific targeting mechanics for e.g. archery towers, specific vulnerability windows, specific damge values, specific block values) can often have big consequences.
  • If/when we have done the occasional deep dive on one of the two primary systems involved in this equation -- siege or normal PvP combat -- we find ourselves doing time consuming testing, implementation, and exploratory development, which has not always, historically, panned out to anything useful. The fair and legitimate criticism has then often been directed at us, after a month or so of that, "y u only work on pvp? only 1% cares at all". Both siege and pvp combat are large scope enough to be games entirely in their own right!
  • The design problems involved are non-trivial to begin with, especially in the non-curated 24/7 365 MMO environment.

So, idk where I'm going with this, but, one thing I would love to stress is that we are very open to better ideas than the ones presently in place. If you present good cases for alternative rulesets entirely, I am fairly open to that, and I have no sacred cows, really. I just want a game with PvP, or at least real consequences.

Should do a stream this month so we can talk through all of this again for the umpteenth time. Eventually we'll strike gold!

Let there be no mistaking this much: The game's gonna make it. Give it another 15 years and I think the game could eventually become really good.

:)
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby Clemins » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:45 pm

Based.
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Re: Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

Postby DonVelD » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:49 pm

teaching-jorb-how-to-fight stream when? :)
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