Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby TheServant » Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:51 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:Removing kritter speed buffs is the biggest change that's happened to PvP since I started playing like 5 years ago. Bigger than the 300% sword buff. Bigger than UA equalization. So big I'm complaining about it instead of a new, faster winter boat (which is awful btw).

It's crazy this change came about because 1 single village of people who don't even PvP made 1 thread and probably had like 5 people with scripts PM you. Just like the sword buff was because of one conversation with verascksksk, or how like 3 people who like archery have you believing less than 98% of papers don't want it straight up removed.

After seeing one chase without kritters I'm either not going to login again or only play very casually until it's fixed.


TL;DR revert forager change this shit sucks ass



its my xmas gift!
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby VDZ » Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:07 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:Removing kritter speed buffs is the biggest change that's happened to PvP since I started playing like 5 years ago. Bigger than the 300% sword buff. Bigger than UA equalization. So big I'm complaining about it instead of a new, faster winter boat (which is awful btw).

It's crazy this change came about because 1 single village of people who don't even PvP made 1 thread and probably had like 5 people with scripts PM you. Just like the sword buff was because of one conversation with verascksksk, or how like 3 people who like archery have you believing less than 98% of papers don't want it straight up removed.

After seeing one chase without kritters I'm either not going to login again or only play very casually until it's fixed.


TL;DR revert forager change this shit sucks ass

So basically, due to this patch you're becoming a peaceful farmer instead of griefing newbies to the point they quit, and that's a bad thing?
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby DDDsDD999 » Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:19 pm

jorb wrote:
WowGain wrote:the monkeys paw curls a-fucking-gain
armor repair 2.0

when will you learn to stop turning highly recommended changes into hot garbage because you cant resist fucking around with it


Hmmm? Are we talking about the changes to speed from Forager and Credo? What is so hot garbage about this version of it?

Chases are 10x longer, and there's nothing to do during them except waiting for speed buffs or a friend to bring a snekk. The most useful client feature to deal with this will be a peggle plugin to keep people from dying out of boredom.

Also the noobs that complained that pvp was just a water-carrying contest aren't too far off now. You need to carry a LOT more water and food.
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby ThorleifCleaver » Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:28 pm

Hey, the tamed reindeer's nose glows. Weird.

Is there a particular reason that the combat system can't incorporate a new move set that actually does include distance/speed changes outside of the simple running speeds? Your other game, Salem, had something like that. This is a different system, of course, but being able to control distance and engagement is still very important. I could see a lunge or fleche that rapidly closes a few tiles or moves like dash actually moving you away a few tiles. A separate category of moves might make sense, and I'm sure a careful consideration of drawbacks would add a tactical layer.
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:30 pm

VDZ wrote:So basically, due to this patch you're becoming a peaceful farmer instead of griefing newbies to the point they quit, and that's a bad thing?


Just make the game so bad everybody quits, then there will be no griefing

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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby kirion » Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:52 pm

Just make the game so bad that I quit, then there will be no griefing


FTFY
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby kaysaari » Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:01 pm

Cool patch, I like tamable reindeer
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby ChildhoodObesity » Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:36 pm

If people are genuinely butthurt about the removal of the kritter bonus + rabbit bonus adding them back isn't the BEST solution in my opinion. The bunny slippers giving you a speed buff isn't exactly intuitive at all. A new player discovering the game would never assume this, it's not even in the tooltip when you craft it. The only way they would discover this is through external resources like the wiki or getting absolutely dunked by someone who's using them and putting the dots together. A new player likely also wouldn't conclude the forager bonus can apply nicely in combat when running. It's also stupid that you're forced to use a certain pair of shoes in combat and MUST have a credo to participate. I think a BETTER solution would just be adding a gust of wind or something (similar to a speed buff) that moves around semi-quickly and when you chase it you gain a boost in speed.

I'm surprised the removal of this has generated so much shitstorm though. This most definitely does NOT cause a chase to last 10x longer. A chase between 2 equals in skill wont really be impacted at all. Your ability to escape against someone with similar skill is always going to be reliant on speedbuffs or things like snekkjas, safe palis, etc. Seeing the kritter first doesn't give a giant gap between you and them and usually this gap would be nullified by the 1% chasing bonus before/after the kritter. Most of the time the kritter will walk off to the side and you can't even pick it up and then the person chasing you chases it longer completely removing the already small advantage it gave.

There also isn't much skill disparity involved in taking advantage of this, it's literally a 0 to 1, either you don't use it or you do use it (knowing the situations in which it can be used is involved in this). It's also weird for there to be an argument that it's a skill based mechanic and then argue that its main benefit is when running away and getting that small advantage. I'm not sure how clicking a kritter before someone sees it is skill based at all.

The one situation in which there can be skill involved is incredibly rare in my opinion. If you're in a fight with someone where you both don't want to run and fight to the KO, there can be advantageous moments where you click it after putting yourself into say a Cleave CD, however, if the person knows what they're doing they can just not engage you near a kritter, or wait for you to click it and also click it. Even if you do take advantage of it in this context the other person would likely just run away after rather than endlessly re-engaging you and falling for the same thing. The only context this really happens in is a scheduled 1v1 or where the person is outnumbered and trying to use kritters against people who aren't very good xd.

TLDR:
Locking the speed bonus behind credo/slippers uninuitive/bad. Would be better to add something very intuitive that achieves the same effect with no barrier to entry.

Also if you really want to improve chases do this + make speed buffs incredibly more rare. Would also be ideal to make it so you can't hop in snekkjas/knarrs when in combat, however, this could result in bodyblocking on rivers and such. Not entirely sure on the best workaround for that, however, it's very lame that someone can just run into a snekk/knarr and you're hopeless against them after. Rowboats/dugouts/coracles are fine because you can carry them easily/run with them at least.
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby Harunobu » Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:50 pm

If PvP is so boring to you, then don't do pvp. Easy.

Sounds like PvP is fundamentally broken. Maybe if you run away you just get away and can avoid a fight. Is that bad? The only bad thing right now is that you try to chance when you know it will fail.

So your contention is that you should never be able to run away from a fight? Or should running away from a fight be made even easier so people don't try to chase for 10 minutes because they might catch up?
Last edited by Harunobu on Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Development: Rednosed Yule

Postby WowGain » Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:55 pm

jorb wrote:
WowGain wrote:the monkeys paw curls a-fucking-gain
armor repair 2.0

when will you learn to stop turning highly recommended changes into hot garbage because you cant resist fucking around with it


Hmmm? Are we talking about the changes to speed from Forager and Credo? What is so hot garbage about this version of it?


the only problem with the general forager buff (bslipper removal sad but understandable- looking forward to actually wearing striders) was its credo restriction that gated it from new players pretty badly (most casual players have difficulty managing to complete even two credos, most rarely even interact with them). if you were to simply make it a skill purchasable with LP it would be entirely accessible and still be a vital aspect of having any real movement tech to this game
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