Game Development: Milling Water

[strpk0]

lmao

[Dawidio123]

- Wearing "white flag" in hand, as a symbol of surrender, similar to Wanderer's Bindle, disable possibility to PvP this person. Cannot be worn by Outlaws (those who likes PvP) and during combat. Taking it off, disable that person to initiate PvP for certain time, but others now can attack you (to prevent some bugs)
- Magic spell for instant heart fire teleportation (before someone attacks you), cost some XP, cannot be used by Outlaws and during combat. This still will require some quick-action skill, for those who says that "bunny slippers" is skill-based thing (then don't use your custom clients retards)
- New credo ("Saint" or something) that allows you to disable possibility to attack you when you are a "good" person, so when you don't use criminal acts, don't leave scents, is not an Outlaw, etc.
- For "Thief" skill to be still useful, if you cannot KO/Kill anyone using "anti-pvp" mechanics, you could still chase someone and make him a hostage, then you can ask for random items from inventory/equipment to give you for freedom (instant hf teleportation of hostage then maybe?) or maybe to give you a % of his LP/XP. Maybe charisma will affect that % so it's finally useful stat for something (maybe charisma comparison attacker vs. defender to calculate how much % it will be given?)
- Again, separating "good" from "I kill for fun" person, maybe add like credo or "Saint" effect, to indicate that person wants to be non-pvp, you still can get into fight easily, but with that effect, you cannot be KOed, so also robbed, but maybe give some of your LP/XP? Still need healing tho
- Pacific status? The same as above with that credo/saint effect, but gaining it during combat - if you don't use any offensive skill (including gaining IP) then you cannot be KOed/robbed, just give some LP/XP

I think i should just call you a retard and move on but fuck it let's talk about your ideas:

-White flags. What happens when i put 20 alts in your gates with those flags? What happens if i put alts like this around localized resource, or let's do an extreme edgecase, what if i surround my whole palisade with them when you try to siege me? Yep, bad.
-Would be abused with clients doing it instantly when they see someone, it has been like that in legacy and it was a competition between faster auto-aggro and auto-hf. (counterpoint, stop being a retard and use a custom client like everyone else, devs don't improve on the vanilla client enough for it to be usable)
-So same as whiteflag but now you need to do credo, great idea.
-Lol, lmao even. How do you think that would end? People holding you hostage for infinite amount of time or if it's time limited people just going afk until you can't do anything. While we are on it let's talk about your stealing lp/xp which is super retarded, it's basically farming skulls from alts but on steroids, people would spam alts and just yeet them for free lp infinitely.
-Idk what's your point here, it's the same as the other "saint credo", what do you want someone to be immune to KO? Is the point that if you get into a fight and get to 1 hp you port back to base and give some lp? Who cares, either way it's highly abusable and dumb.
-Once again stealing lp/xp while it might seem like such a fucking great idea to you, is highly abusable and will lead to people with infinite lp/xp.

Honestly instead of shitting out so many garbage "ideas", make ONE decent one next time while considering all the possible edgecases. Because all of yours are either "no-pvp" characters (dumb) or stealing lp/xp instead of KO+Stealing items (even dumber).
Learn how to run away properly, it's not magic custom clients that prevent you from running in a straight line, drinking and running into a couple speedboosts, if you then learn how to click critters (clicking on map is more than fine especially if you don't fight back and only focus on running) you will be able to avoid 9/10 KOs.
I really don't understand how people make the critter chasing boosts about themselves while they would be caught even without it. Nobody was complaining about its removal bcs they couldn't catch hermits anymore (kind of funny that the mechanic was clearly in favour of the side running away).

[vatas]

I think some kind of "opt-out of PvP" feature similar to what Veme described could work, at least theoretically.

However, it should come with some hefty restriction/countermeasures, including but not limited to:

*Act of raising the flag itself would have to be carefully restricted, otherwise people would just carry one with them and raise it the moment they see an unknown player.
*If you raise "white flag" or whatever, it should not be easy or perhaps even possible to lower it outside of specific conditions (something like standing on top of your Hearth Fire, for example.)
*Characters who have "white flag" raised can be, if not freely, very easily "evicted" to their Hearth Fire.
*Something to prevent repeated cycle of "raise the flag" "go be annoying" "force someone to evict you" "repeat" ad nauseum.

[Barbamaus]

I think some kind of "opt-out of PvP" feature similar to what Veme described could work, at least theoretically.

However, it should come with some hefty restriction/countermeasures, including but not limited to:

*Act of raising the flag itself would have to be carefully restricted, otherwise people would just carry one with them and raise it the moment they see an unknown player.
*If you raise "white flag" or whatever, it should not be easy or perhaps even possible to lower it outside of specific conditions (something like standing on top of your Hearth Fire, for example.)
*Characters who have "white flag" raised can be, if not freely, very easily "evicted" to their Hearth Fire.
*Something to prevent repeated cycle of "raise the flag" "go be annoying" "force someone to evict you" "repeat" ad nauseum.

This makes me think: what about some sort of passive-mode like GTA Online has?
In such mode you would be unable to fight, unable to do any criminal acts, and people could simply walk past you.
In order to activate it, you need to be out of combat and by your hearthfire; it might even have an activation time like a minute or so.
In order to de-activate it, you need to be at your hearthfire, and it will absolutely have a timer (maybe 5 minutes or so), preventing you from going around in passive mode and all of a sudden attacking someone by deactivating it instantly.

Since you would no longer be an obstacle to other players, this would remove the issue of non-pvp alt spam blocking gates or resources, since you would just go past them.
The activation HF requirement prevents you from doing it mid-combat, even if you manage to drop aggro for a moment.
The de-activation timer and HF requirement prevents you from going around in passive with the intent of de-activating to attack.

Would this be something doable?

[Clemins]

I think some kind of "opt-out of PvP" feature similar to what Veme described could work, at least theoretically.

I think Nightdawg once suggested mugging as an alternative to getting KO'd and stolen from. Like a surrender option (a window popping up, like getting a party invite from an attacker), you get disabled for some time and give access to your inventory, similarly to getting KO'd but without going ass up. While I'm not suggesting this as an absolute alternative to hermit hunting, having it as an option could reduce the number of KO's specifically because sometimes some people just want the 6 flotsams in your inventory, and KO'ing is a means to an end.

That being said, I don't think this white-flag/saint credo whatever idea is a good idea. Honestly, the less complicated a major mechanic change is, the less likely it ends in a horrible mess. Though I don't really think there is a better alternitive to avoid getting KO'd then just learning how to run away. It's really not that hard and I think most people just get the fight or flight adrenaline rush and lock up, and if not that, then they just need to learn how to run away with our without critter speed buffs.

[Clemins]

I think some kind of "opt-out of PvP" feature similar to what Veme described could work, at least theoretically.

However, it should come with some hefty restriction/countermeasures, including but not limited to:

*Act of raising the flag itself would have to be carefully restricted, otherwise people would just carry one with them and raise it the moment they see an unknown player.
*If you raise "white flag" or whatever, it should not be easy or perhaps even possible to lower it outside of specific conditions (something like standing on top of your Hearth Fire, for example.)
*Characters who have "white flag" raised can be, if not freely, very easily "evicted" to their Hearth Fire.
*Something to prevent repeated cycle of "raise the flag" "go be annoying" "force someone to evict you" "repeat" ad nauseum.

This makes me think: what about some sort of passive-mode like GTA Online has?
In such mode you would be unable to fight, unable to do any criminal acts, and people could simply walk past you.
In order to activate it, you need to be out of combat and by your hearthfire; it might even have an activation time like a minute or so.
In order to de-activate it, you need to be at your hearthfire, and it will absolutely have a timer (maybe 5 minutes or so), preventing you from going around in passive mode and all of a sudden attacking someone by deactivating it instantly.

Since you would no longer be an obstacle to other players, this would remove the issue of non-pvp alt spam blocking gates or resources, since you would just go past them.
The activation HF requirement prevents you from doing it mid-combat, even if you manage to drop aggro for a moment.
The de-activation timer and HF requirement prevents you from going around in passive with the intent of de-activating to attack.

Would this be something doable?

I'll go ahead and point out that I can already imagine how this could be abused.

• Bots that grab localized resources are now invincible, let alone, any other limited natural spawning resources
• People can freely strip mine ore located directly beneath your village or within your mines without being able to be stopped
• I can't see this working in vehicles such as boats; imagine getting caged in by 2-4 "passive mode" people in knarrs/snekkjas
• Imagine someone setting up a ton of alts or bots with claims all around your village with unbreakable hearthfires and unkillable characters, bricking all plot expansion (this already happens to a degree).

Im sure there is more, but these came to my mind immediately

[Barbamaus]

About this,

I think some kind of "opt-out of PvP" feature similar to what Veme described could work, at least theoretically.

I think Nightdawg once suggested mugging as an alternative to getting KO'd and stolen from. Like a surrender option (a window popping up, like getting a party invite from an attacker), you get disabled for some time and give access to your inventory, similarly to getting KO'd but without going ass up. While I'm not suggesting this as an absolute alternative to hermit hunting, having it as an option could reduce the number of KO's specifically because sometimes some people just want the 6 flotsams in your inventory, and KO'ing is a means to an end.

That being said, I don't think this white-flag/saint credo whatever idea is a good idea. Honestly, the less complicated a major mechanic change is, the less likely it ends in a horrible mess. Though I don't really think there is a better alternitive to avoid getting KO'd then just learning how to run away. It's really not that hard and I think most people just get the fight or flight adrenaline rush and lock up, and if not that, then they just need to learn how to run away with our without critter speed buffs.

I don't think mugging would solve the issue, unless there's a limit to it.
For most hermits, wounds are not the problem. Losing everything you wear is.

Most hermits don't have the resources to replace their gear within the day after getting robbed. And knowing that everything you worked hard for has been lost because some asshole threw it away to grief you (because let's face it, 9 out of 10 times they get stripped even if they don't have anything of value on them) just makes it worse.

Possible partial solution could be limiting the amount of items you can take from a KO player? Like inventory + 2/3 piece of gear? After that they can't be robbed again without another KO. Although this would suck for higher tier players, since KOing your enemy in a fight would mean removing only a couple of items from them... (one of the reasons why I think we need real fights to be way more deadly, but that's yet another topic))

This makes me think: what about some sort of passive-mode like GTA Online has?
In such mode you would be unable to fight, unable to do any criminal acts, and people could simply walk past you.
In order to activate it, you need to be out of combat and by your hearthfire; it might even have an activation time like a minute or so.
In order to de-activate it, you need to be at your hearthfire, and it will absolutely have a timer (maybe 5 minutes or so), preventing you from going around in passive mode and all of a sudden attacking someone by deactivating it instantly.

Since you would no longer be an obstacle to other players, this would remove the issue of non-pvp alt spam blocking gates or resources, since you would just go past them.
The activation HF requirement prevents you from doing it mid-combat, even if you manage to drop aggro for a moment.
The de-activation timer and HF requirement prevents you from going around in passive with the intent of de-activating to attack.

Would this be something doable?

I'll go ahead and point out that I can already imagine how this could be abused.

• Bots that grab localized resources are now invincible, let alone, any other limited natural spawning resources
• People can freely strip mine ore located directly beneath your village or within your mines without being able to be stopped
• I can't see this working in vehicles such as boats; imagine getting caged in by 2-4 "passive mode" people in knarrs/snekkjas
• Imagine someone setting up a ton of alts or bots with claims all around your village with unbreakable hearthfires and unkillable characters, bricking all plot expansion (this already happens to a degree).

Im sure there is more, but these came to my mind immediately

Good points, but it's easy to add them to the limitations of passive mode.
The idea of passive mode is not to be able to opt out of pvp while doing everything else normally. But rather having some limitations in exchange for safety.

So taking into consideration your examples, while in passive-mode you could be:
- Unable to interact with localized resources
- Unable to mine
- Unable to operate large vehicles

Not sure about the claim point, claims can be destroyed regardless of this?
Buffer zones between claims, palisades drying time, and villages being able to declaim fresher pclaims, I don't really see this as a huge issue.

This whole discussion does bring up another topic: at which point will we realise that most issues come down to bots/alt spam? Maybe we should focus on reducing the ability to use alts and bots.

[Kailowy]

[*] Reverted the recent changes to the speed buffs provided by the "Forager" credo and "Bunny Slippers", due to public outcry. It could perhaps be argued that "Bunny Slippers" are particularly egregious in this regard, as they enforce a meta where "Bunny Slippers" are the only footwear possible to use in PvP. Feel free to suggest changes. Reverting for now, but open to arguments.

ok so if crying work,

<cry> OCH NOOO! REMOVE SPEED BUFF BUNNYSLIPPERS META SUX </cry>

ok now, in next update, you can revert reversion again so the other half comunity can start they cry again

and being serious:
having eq slot what only ONE item can be rationale used its just joke, meaby removing buff just from boots wil work, or adding terain buff on other boots for example
Fur Boots will have speed buff on slow/ice terrain,
Ranger's Boots in forest
Leather Boots on grass
ect

[veme]

Honestly instead of shitting out so many garbage "ideas", make ONE decent one

Then go ahead, give me one good idea to solve this issue so everyone is happy. Dunno why you all pvpers can't even read with comprehension. Look at this:

Some ideas which might be stupid as hell, but maybe devs will come up with better ideas inspired by this

Never said that these are good ideas, and only I personally liked the idea of LP/XP steal even tho it might not be a good idea at all. Just give me better one. Instead of calling me retard and "learn to" you could give any idea as others. I know that there will be exploits and that's why it needs to be well thought out, but calling me names won't help.

Learn how to run away properly

And what if I, as most of non-pvp guys, don't want constantly to run away from you cause it's simple not fun? What if I can't run away from you, cause I have 15km to my base due to doing credo and your friends will come on boats to help you KO me and steal my 2 spindle taproots and throw my whole eq on the ground, oh no. Try to avoid bears, mammoths, wolfs and other animals in straight line. One noob and animals aggroing me, nice. Then I have to avoid them in around movements, and you just simple follow me without any loss. You can have pain in the ass and says that boots are great and call me retard as long as you want, but it is simple not fun and these boots are shit, period. If they didn't have any impact on the gameplay then why there is such outcry, huh?

[Dawidio123]

...

There is no clear way for everyone to be happy, it's either an open-pvp permadeath (way less so that it used to be) game and the non-pvp players are unhappy, or it's catered towards the non-pvp crowd and that will be either exploited by the pvp crowd or the pvp crowd will be unhappy because of it. Of course it would be great if we could make it so both sides perfectly happy with the state of things but that's very idealistic. There is no reason for me to make ideas for something I think is fine as it is, i just pointed out how your ideas are easily abusable perhaps not in the most courteous way.

I do like the idea proposed by Nightdawg that Clemins mentioned of players being able to consent to "search" so there would be less reason for people to KO hermits for, a lot would still absolutely do it for the sake of it but some might leave you alone after they see your inventory and take what they want (and honestly they would have to if they wanted hermits to consistently allow them to do that, same as honoring hat or die), but it's fundamentally different from your idea of being held "hostage". Anyways when that was proposed people shat on him and said it was just another way to bully hermits so pardon me for not being very fond of thinking of ideas to help non-pvp players in a way that doesn't fuck with pvp.

About running away, the point is precisely NOT to have to run back to your base to escape (Which was the main way to do it after critter removal other than getting lucky with speedboosts, especially as a group), the point is that you lose your pursuers and are able to port back. I don't think many people are calling their friends to help them with a hermit, ganks like that are usually done on a person that left scents so you can track them and prepare for it, not random encounters.
I don't think slippers are great, i like the mechanic of chasing critters since it makes chasing a bit more dynamic, i think slippers themselves (credo too) are dumb and the chasing bonus should be on a skill or just by default for everyone, as I've said multiple times before. Critter chasing did have impact on gameplay just not on chasing hermits.