Game Development: Milling Water

[abt79]

>i want to be able to opt out of pvp entirely

then play a different game. HnH is designed to be competitive such that there are no “peaceful” players.

[mulamishne]

And what if I, as most of non-pvp guys, don't want constantly to run away from you cause it's simple not fun?

Then you genuinely might not want to play a multiplayer sandbox game that has used pvp as it's primary form of conflict resolution for more than a decade.

Opt-in pvp has so many edge cases that I would not want to EVER see in the game because we would receive nothing new ever because each patch would be one more issue with it being fixed.

As for conflict between 'pvp guy' and 'non-pvp' guy, early on alot of it is mostly mugging for curios and gear, so I liked nightdawgs solution, but I recall a TON of 'non-pvp' guys complaining about it.

Honestly, current system is the friendliest it's ever been, permadeath only happens if someone is pants on head retarded and refuses to learn.

[DonVelD]

@jorb - bunny slippers are shit and should be disabled, cause it's simple just not fair. Or there should be another option for those who do not want to participate in PvP. Don't get me wrong, leave the PvP but only for those who wants to fight with each other. Especially that PvP in current stage is not fair most of the time. Bunny slippers just make it even more unfair. My arguments:

- Attackers are most of the time from big villages. They always have better gear, better stats and more friends (they fight 3vs1 or 2vs1).
- Attackers are oriented mostly on fight. They don't waste time on mining, farming or crafting, cause they have people for that. I have job, family and life - can't play 16h a day to do all that stuff and keep up with fighting.
- Don't have any friends on call to help me if I need more people to fight
- They attack without asking, just for fun. I find "fun" in exploration, mining trolls, animal hunting, progressing from spruce to q200 clay. Theirs "fun" takes my "fun" away
- When I do Nomad credo, I feel such stress when I go 15km to the tree to do the quest, that I really got shaky hands after that, cause I know that if I met someone, I'd be KOed and robbed instantly.
- They got bots where I do everything by hand. I tried to use it, but it took all fun from the game. I don't want to use bots, but otherwise I'm harmed if I don't use it.
- They got special clients that show them critters and automatically boost their speed. Even if I'll be good at catching critters, program will be always better at it.

It's so sad that the game is made only for big villages. They always get best buffs, advantage in fight and even updates for them. Again I, as small player, don't get any chance if I don't want to join communistic big village, where I need to be a living bot for mining and farming, giving my share to public and got kicked off if I don't play much.

And I know they will hate me, calling me spruce and so on, but I don't give a shit about them. I know how to play, I know my value, cause I play this game for 10+ years and for me it's best game ever, just unfair. I'm curious if they could survive playing alone without support of their retarded friends. I play with my friend casually and I fear when I leave the village. I fear when I meet someone outside. I build village far away from anyone. Cannot build near swamps, rivers, oceans and mountains cause always there are these fucks who will "kill for fun".

The best update was KO instead of death, but still, I can get robbed. It's not a big deal, but it's so time consuming to replace everything - locks (from lost slave key), making gear (silk, hardened leather, steel - it takes time...), making new tools and even waterskins, loosing good horse... And wasting 1-2 days for healing cause one fuck attacked me instead of saying "hi" when I tried to use thingwall...

The PvP in my opinion should have a little rework, so less experienced players or small villages are not disadvantaged. Not everyone wants to fight in PvP! If I'm forced to do that, then I want to have at least some chance...

Actually I quite agree with this person. Their "fun" taking away my "fun" reminds me of "my freedom ends when the freedom of others begins". Not having PvP at all is not a solution. There should be ways to prevent people griefing with disposable alts, and for some PvP is fun.
But honestly, having a way to avoid PvP you're uninterested in would be great. If attacker contests something like local resource or similar - I want to have an option to give it up and leave. I see a huge problem in ballance where people with combat alts roam around to hunt weakings just for "fun".

Might as well start with making thingwalls as temporary non combat zone.

On the topic, I see a lot of people saying that speed buff won't change anything for them, because they are good in PvP anyway, or there are other problems to adress. If so - maybe some extended period of buff removal will provide ground for consideration, was it mandatory, or was it optional?

[Luno]

Very good update overall.
Watermills seem to add nothing new, practically speaking, besides being a water palisade.
Brings big problem and is barely a feature, sadly.

Just wanna contribute to the cacophony and say forager buff good, bunny slippers bad.
I disagree that it being locked to credo is that big of a problem, since it's forager credo, which is a credo that is required for every other credo in the game that isn't fisherman or hunter. So if you are actually playing the game, you will have the buff in no more than a day or two.

Bunny slippers invalidate all other shoes in the game except if u have cool custom client feature that autoswaps to slippers everytime u click bunny. No honest pvper will deny the existance of this feature on custom clients.

Snail is right in saying that there are bigger problems, but like, i don't wanna wear bunny slippers, man, lol.

[Barbamaus]

we would receive nothing new ever because each patch would be one more issue with it being fixed.

LOL, as if that had been the case for anything so far... game has plenty of issues, never stopped devs from making random new content instead of fixes

[veme]

Then you genuinely might not want to play a multiplayer sandbox game that has used pvp as it's primary form of conflict resolution for more than a decade.

Oh no, why Haven after few months of playing has almost no active players and why there are not that much new players after so many years

Honestly, current system is the friendliest it's ever been

Ah right, constant KO from random guy in the forest and getting all my stuff dropped to the ground to disappear is very friendly. You want to make Haven a improguynotanoob-level game of high stake action games and totally dont give a fuck of casual players or spruce newbies that just starts and learn all the mechanics. Really, the community here is so toxic that I would be really glad if devs announced split server for PvE and PvP so I would never give a fuck about that part of community. At the current stage, in my opinion Haven has enough mechanics to be interesting without PvP for most of the players (we can still extend it with more dungeons, interesting quests, side events, new animals and monsters). At least for me it's enough. it kept me playing this game over and over for 10+ years without need to ever think of KO/kill someone. If you don't find it interesting without PvP, then go play counter strike or something like that, so you got your perfect PvP-oriented game and you can call noobs a noob cause they didn't learn mechanics of high-stake games. Haven is NOT purely about PvP and it's NOT its main mechanic.

[Harunobu]

This is stupid on all sides.

This game needs PvP. But it needs good PvP. And it needs something so that a hermit noob that worked months for their character doesn't lose anything when they slightly trust a random person they meet, then getting killed with literally zero chance of winning that encounter.
Any opt-in pvp system will be abused by PvP players the hardest.

Second, the critter chase revert upate is utter stupidity. WTF are you doing, devs? You have no vision for this game at all? So when some people yell about X, you remove X? And then when others yell about X being removed, you put it back the next patch? WTF

Third, this community is extremely toxic. And it doesn't make sense. If you want to be a big boy in the game and kill random people and noobs, then you need to be a nice guy on the forum. But they either can't or won't.
PvP is supposed to be about how the biggest factions of the most experienced players fight it out. Factions who can quickly replace perma death characters.

Fourth, a watermill that can be used to block off a river and acts as a palisade? What is the point besides it looking cool?

Fifth, this patch shows that the devs also need to unlock themselves from the sandbox mindset and develop a vision for the game. Think about the core mechanics. You can't have a game and just add random cool things and see what happens.

Sixth, back to PvP. Why does PvP have to have skill in this game? Why can't PvP be 100% skillless but backed up by all other aspects of the game? If you don't like a skillless PvP, there are plenty of other games out there.

Seventh, why would it be hard to give this game a good PvP mechanic? One that doesn't rely on drinking and chasing? You know, like literally every game ever has.

Eighth, yes this game needs endgame content. We have tons of infinity games out there that offer dozens of solutions that the devs can just copy from.

And finally, if you even think about being a toxic retard and attempt to parody this post, you'll be hit with the banhammer so fucking hard, you'll have no idea what hit you!

[Clemins]

Third, this community is extremely toxic. And it doesn't make sense. If you want to be a big boy in the game and kill random people and noobs, then you need to be a nice guy on the forum. But they either can't or won't.

And finally, if you even think about being a toxic retard and attempt to parody this post, you will be hit with the banhammer so fucking hard, you'll have no idea what hit you!

Here, seems like you haven't used one of these in awhile

[Harunobu]

Third, this community is extremely toxic. And it doesn't make sense. If you want to be a big boy in the game and kill random people and noobs, then you need to be a nice guy on the forum. But they either can't or won't.

And finally, if you even think about being a toxic retard and attempt to parody this post, you will be hit with the banhammer so fucking hard, you'll have no idea what hit you!

Here, seems like you haven't used one of these in awhile

Tolerance paradox. Being intolerant of bullies is not toxicity. It is anti-toxicity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

[insert picture of brain]

Honestly, people like you seem to be exactly what I was talking about. Just don't reply. At all. You have literally nothing of value to add.

[Clemins]

Third, this community is extremely toxic. And it doesn't make sense. If you want to be a big boy in the game and kill random people and noobs, then you need to be a nice guy on the forum. But they either can't or won't.

And finally, if you even think about being a toxic retard and attempt to parody this post, you will be hit with the banhammer so fucking hard, you'll have no idea what hit you!

Here, seems like you haven't used one of these in awhile

Tolerance paradox. Being intolerant of bullies is not toxicity. It is anti-toxicity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

[insert picture of brain]

Simple hypocrisy. Generalizing and calling someone out while using strong language is still bullying. Fighting fire with fire only makes the fire bigger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization