Game Development: Beavertopia

[Jalpha]

Devs adding seasons in December confirmed.

[magisticus]

holy shit.

I'm thinking that perhaps to prevent instagibbing of newbies, you can have an invisible buff that makes it impossible to be reduced to less than 1% HHP so long as your hearth on knockout timer isn't on cooldown?

+1 to this

I think with this something more would also need to be done about control of territory, both village and realm to make fighting perhaps more about that if it isn't going to be about killing another hearthling (so that when a group has won a big fight they get some kind of felling of achievment out of it).

[Sevenless]

Protecting beginners is a great thing to be interested in, but anything that gives newborn characters special buffs needs to be done with extreme caution, preferably not at all. Alt wars have happened in the past because of it, and it's a pretty stupid mechanic overall to encourage spamming alts in combat because they have special properties that older characters don't.

But as I said earlier in this thread, I think we've seen enough support that we should at least experiment with true non-permadeath at this point (base permadeath, full loot, wound systems left intact of course). If it doesn't work, nothing saying we can't revert. A surprising number of the remaining "old guard" (players I recognize from the last couple years) even are supporting the concept.

[ctopolon3]

Alt wars ... spamming alts

mb problem is in ALTs ? dont need fix game machanic, need fix Alt spamming
permadeath is so scary when u have miner, crafter, warrior x2, farmer, scout, trader

[Sevenless]

Alt wars ... spamming alts

mb problem is in ALTs ? dont need fix game machanic, need fix Alt spamming
permadeath is so scary when u have miner, crafter, warrior x2, farmer, scout, trader

Even taking away permadeath could still have fresh alts as an issue. Free to play game with free account signup + fully bot capable clients = dangerous territory. If the devs decide to take away permadeath, this issue would have to be watched to see if combat mechanics make it useful type idea.

But yes, I much prefer playing just on one character. It's a lot more fun for me as well.

[loftar]

Removing permadeath

I just want to add that I wouldn't consider this change to constitute "removing permadeath". It's well worth noting that you'd still permadie if you reach 0 HHP, it's just that there's a longer road to that state. The fact that the only two possible outcomes of PvP encounters are win or death is something that's been bothering me since World 1, and I've always wanted to "gradate" death a bit, if only so that other outcomes exist at all. The chance of losing in PvP without dying is virtually nil right now.

If I were to present my own possible objections against this mechanic, it would be that 1) it feels a bit forced, and 2) it perhaps makes it too hard to die instead (but keep in mind that it doesn't make it impossible to die). I'm quite open to ideas that would mitigate those objections, but I'd like to believe in the possibility that the proposed gradation of death is better than nothing at all. The fact that it also puts more weight on the wound system is also a nice thing.

[dreddys]

Any updates this Wednesday ?

[qoonpooka]

Removing permadeath

I just want to add that I wouldn't consider this change to constitute "removing permadeath". It's well worth noting that you'd still permadie if you reach 0 HHP, it's just that there's a longer road to that state. The fact that the only two possible outcomes of PvP encounters are win or death is something that's been bothering me since World 1, and I've always wanted to "gradate" death a bit, if only so that other outcomes exist at all. The chance of losing in PvP without dying is virtually nil right now.

If I were to present my own possible objections against this mechanic, it would be that 1) it feels a bit forced, and 2) it perhaps makes it too hard to die instead (but keep in mind that it doesn't make it impossible to die). I'm quite open to ideas that would mitigate those objections, but I'd like to believe in the possibility that the proposed gradation of death is better than nothing at all. The fact that it also puts more weight on the wound system is also a nice thing.

One of the things that draws me to H&H is just how extremely, brutally, unforgivingly lethal PvP is. This should have a chilling effect on PvP/griefing. I'll admit to having very little experience with combat at all beyond hunting, but the entire concept of being able to inflict meaningful losses on someone who's crossed me is extremely attractive. There's a natural political effect that occurs as a result. I fear - but do not know - that a side effect from this is that a group with a consistent win rate will eventually become untouchable as they haven't lost LP (and thus abilities) and their potential enemies are. This 'tyranny of the victor' effect is a tolerable cost of getting the highly realistic calculus of "If I lose this fight, I'm dead."

My limited PvP combat experience, however, has never involved me dying when I lost... just getting KO'd and all my stuff stolen off my body.

If HHP = 0 is not a choice a combatant makes after the fact, then that's the problem. Auto-hearthing on KO seems like it deprives the victor of his rightful spoils (says someone who's only ever lost these fights).

Changes to other game systems, like Scents, seems like a better way to go. For example: Justified homicide; AIUI, if you kill someone, you leave Murder scent, even if you tracked a murderer to his home, etc. Giving scent-holders lower costs to avenge themselves (no free kills, but like, cheaper siege equipment or not leaving a Murder scent if you kill someone who's Murder scent you hold in your inventory at the moment of death) or otherwise making minor adjustments to the victor's calculus seems just as useful to this end - changing player decisions.

For this to work, of course, underdogs need meaningful ways to fight against the current Best-On-Server. I'm not experienced enough in PvP combat to know if someone with lower Agi/UA/MC has a snowball's chance in hell in a fight. I certainly never have, but I also haven't put a lot of deep research into combat itself.

[Granger]

Removing permadeath

I just want to add that I wouldn't consider this change to constitute "removing permadeath". It's well worth noting that you'd still permadie if you reach 0 HHP, it's just that there's a longer road to that state. The fact that the only two possible outcomes of PvP encounters are win or death is something that's been bothering me since World 1, and I've always wanted to "gradate" death a bit, if only so that other outcomes exist at all. The chance of losing in PvP without dying is virtually nil right now.

If I were to present my own possible objections against this mechanic, it would be that 1) it feels a bit forced, and 2) it perhaps makes it too hard to die instead (but keep in mind that it doesn't make it impossible to die). I'm quite open to ideas that would mitigate those objections, but I'd like to believe in the possibility that the proposed gradation of death is better than nothing at all. The fact that it also puts more weight on the wound system is also a nice thing.

The way of death I suggested here could be a start for a plan:

) On death the character respawns 15 minutes later naked and without LP at the HF - but with Kin list, map, discoveries, skills, attributes & abilities it had when dying. Also with a wound that gives a 100% debuff to the latter two and will take a relevant time (like 4 ingame weeks / ~9-10 RL days) to heal (so the debuff reduces with time), no remedy available and windblown leafs won't work on it. The only difference to teleporting to HF is the added wound, unspent LP and stomach contents be gone, and a corpse left behind now holding all the gear and inventory the character had. Skulls only contain the LP gathered since last respawn, Burying the corpse might reduce the wound

Would have the upsides of still plenty of deaths, making the mechanics for looting, corpses, skulls, whatnot not irrelevant, would work around meta changing from 'kill fast' to 'cripple as much as possible through wounds' (as would most likely happen with KO=TP->HF with wounds kept intact)...

And it would lower the absolute worst case cost of combat to something that a band of farmers might deem acceptable to try an uprising against their overlords - PvP would be more fun without the damocles sword of months lost looming above you.

[ven]

I'm quite open to ideas that would mitigate those objections

Why worry about mitigating them when you can capitalize on that and make healing a whole new game in itself? Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld have an interesting wound system and also an economy developed around it, and you could implement a simplified version of that in Haven as additional content, with expanded healing actions such as surgeries, bone setting, brews etc.

If, as you expect, this new mechanic will encourage pvp, an eventual expansion of the healer's job could be a way to turn that content into something that is also interesting for those of us who dislike pvp, with permadeath or otherwise.