Prelude: World 16

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby Dixie » Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:56 am

WARNING: Longer than average post - if you are bored, have time to kill and enjoy imagining all the ways H&H could evolve in the future read on. Otherwise, your time is too valuable an asset and I do not wish to waste it. So please bookmark this post for a rainy day and move on. ;)

I know it's a bit late now for suggestions being mere days before wipe and w16 Steam launch so I guess you can just file this one with future world suggestions, like for the shorter worlds 6 months down the line.


First is very brief and probably bad idea because it would mean H&H actually entering a new age and leaving the iron age behind, well actually building on it, but whatever. So the idea I immediately had upon hearing about the Steam release was the introduction of Steam power to the Hearthlands. Maybe it could start off very small and very limited. Like maybe just a steam boat. or just a steam powered windmill. IDK just spit-balling. On to my other idea which I've been thinking about for a long time.


Support for an alternative Hearthling lifestyle: NOMADISM!

There are already assets in place conducive to the nomadic way of life. For example carts and wagons can support a kind of caravan for when a whole tribe/village packs up and moves. Im not familiar with much that has been added since world 7 but I have been attempting to catch myself up over the past few weeks. So there may already be more things along these lines already implemented that I havent discovered yet. Anyway Aurochs seem to me the perfect candidate for a beast of burden. {BTW shouldn't they be the one's pulling the plows instead of weak little sprucecaps?}

I do not know if large saddle bags have been added yet but for the nomadic lifestyle they would be extremely useful. Aurochs could be equiped with cupboard sized saddlebags or cargo holds. They could be led along by a leash or tethered to a horse causing it to take a heavy speed penalty. Could have option to use a horse instead and have the horse adapt to its new role as a pack animal over time causing it to no longer be useful for anything else. Maybe it becomes a mule?

Yurts/Teepees. Nomads do not need permanent settlements. Either Teepees like the Native American tribes used or Yurts like the Steppe peoples of Eurasia used. They were sturdy enough to protect people and belongings from the elements through long winters but were designed to be able to dismantle and transport with relative ease and efficiency. Everything they built was easily deconstructed or folded up and packed up for when the seasons changed and it was time for the tribe to move on, following the migrating big game they hunted.

Naturally such a lifestyle would depend far more on the resources acquired from readily available wild flora and fauna than on any tools, facilities or goods that require considerably more time and effort to obtain such as permanent farms, domesticated animals and mining for metal ore. Nomadic tribes make the most of wood, stone, bone, hide, feathers, and wild plants and herbs. They would have access to a wider selection of tools, temporary constructed facilities, craftable goods and food recipes that all utilize those readily available resources out in the wild rather than any elaborate permanent farm and village setup or long term mining operations and all of the associated smelting and smithing works.

Everything set up in a temporary nomad camp would be easily dismantled, packed up on Aurochs, carts and wagons: Personal Claims, Village Claims, Yurts, Tanning Racks, Campfire and spit, Study Desks, lean-tos, etc. Perhaps there could be a nomadic equivalent of the study desk, feasting table, chair, cupboard thus providing the same functionality but in a more portable form designed for use in a Teepee or Yurt?

Maybe even more than one nomadic lifestyle could be possible. Land & River/Lake/Sea nomads for example. Those who travel over land and stick mostly to tracking and hunting big game on land already have horses, carts and wagons. Perhaps the criminal scents tracking system could be the basis for an animal tracking system for hunters. Sea Nomads too have all they need in the available river, lake and sea vessels. Those nomads who travel by river and sea would rely more on fishing, whaling and things related to a more aquatic way of life.

I haven't thought everything all the way through but it seems like a natural fit to me in the existing world of Haven & Hearth. At the moment everything is geared towards Hermits and Villagers, we need more support for Nomads and their hunter gatherer way of life! Both lone wolf and tribal nomads. Also some of the things that help Nomads survive without a permanent settlement could help all Hearthlings in general when they are just starting out from scratch and must survive on the move until they find a suitable place to settle down.

ADDENDUM

Just finished reading every post in this thread and just want to add that I agree with rainbow and overtyped about the bow issue. Back in legacy my favorite character/playstyle was Ranger and of all the PVE/PVP combat styles I believe ranged/archery is the best fit for the Nomadic hunter/gatherer play style. Bow and Arrow were the primary weapons of both Native Americans and the Scythian and Mongolian people of the Eurasian Steppe lands.

Out of curiosity is it not true that every Titan wears steel armor and steel armor is pretty much impervious to arrows? If so then all the more reason to make bow and arrow more not less powerful, no? Anyway, from a Nomadic hunter-gatherer perspective the ability to bring down large game with bow and arrow is essential for survival. Then again so is the ability to defend oneself and the tribe against raids from steel wearing titans so...
Last edited by Dixie on Tue Oct 29, 2024 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby Kaios » Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:05 am

It wasn't that long ago but I had forgotten I made a similar suggestion for animal quality nodes in this thread: https://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=76354

Kaios wrote:I think a mix of random and static can be good depending on how it’s implemented. For example, random generation creates a q300 moose node somewhere on the central continent. Over the course of changing seasons, the node moves in a direction predetermined upon its generation to give the appearance that the animal is migrating until either it eventually reaches back to its original location and the migration direction changes or a new set of nodes are created to repeat the process for another level of randomization.

If the migratory routes were to remain the same however this could be much better than a static position animal node because it adds some involvement to the process while still allowing for quality nodes to be somewhat trackable when changing position. Or maybe it could even be added to tracking skill itself to detect these animal paths.


A system like that (or whatever "drift" is currently) isn't terrible I suppose but some good counter-points were made as well.

Kaios wrote:
Vraatjuh wrote:Do you see this as a realistic short-term development goal though?

I can see how some people prefer a form of static system, because it gives you the chance to reap the reward of finding a high quality node for a limited time at least. But I'd advocate for a quick fix by giving animals a random quality for the coming world to give the devs time to come up with a more suitable long term sollution (if needed). And to give everyone a chance to see if a more random node system is actually better than the current system.


You're right, I am not too sure how difficult it would be to implement that. Essentially it's just the quality nodes themselves that would be alternating position, given how nodes already have a gradual increase/decrease over a particular distance I don't think it would be too difficult to have those alternate their positions. I guess the greater difficulty would be dealing with how the quality node alternates to the appropriate terrain/biome in which the animal related to the node can actually spawn on, or will it simply be moving in a particular direction ignoring all unrelated states such as water until it reaches a point where the animal can spawn.

They did have similar implementations in the past however such as with creature levels, in which civilizations determined the creature levels in a sort of circular radius around the civilization or something like that. Animals closer to Brodgar or a village were lower in level and animals further away were higher in level.

Zampfeo wrote:
Vraatjuh wrote:
Do you see this as a realistic short-term development goal though?

I can see how some people prefer a form of static system, because it gives you the chance to reap the reward of finding a high quality node for a limited time at least. But I'd advocate for a quick fix by giving animals a random quality for the coming world to give the devs time to come up with a more suitable long term sollution (if needed). And to give everyone a chance to see if a more random node system is actually better than the current system.


+1 for realism.

I hope someday there can be a system that rewards human scouting and power projection but without rewarding/necessitating bot use like the other node-based resources. I don't think such a system can be implemented by W16, though. Randomization would be an easy low-hanging-fruit fix.

The problem with a lot of these suggestions (other than complete randomness) is it wouldn't eliminate scouting bots. It would just make them a bigger PITA to set up.

I still think the problem lies with spawn mechanics. Some naked scout bot that only ever traverses a handful of tiles shouldn't be able to initiate the spawning of randomized resource(including candleberries, glimmers, and edelweiss too). Loftar doesn't have a good track record adjusting these mechanics, though (fate and global pools).


I was kind of confused about why it was also applied to forageables but thinking about it I guess it makes some sense.
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby 22nd_ChuckNorris » Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:12 am

jorb wrote:
The_Blode wrote:my friends last played in legacy when the game saw regular 5 second lagspikes, and they were not cool with it, and they quit and never came back. steam release is a rare opportunity to get them to try it again, all these years later.
If the server can't handle the player count at launch and my friends see lagspikes i am going to get such withering looks and they will never let me pick a game again


Difficult problem to navigate tbh. If we launch a bunch of empty servers that dwindle down to nothing quickly that also isn't great.

Thank you all for the feedback. We post these in advance for a reason. May consider various points raised.


You only really get one steam launch though.
It'd really be a shame if most of the negative reviews were due to laggy servers/insanely long queues.
Also since you said that this wipe will last only 6 months a new fresh server will be launched in 6 months, i think the vast majority here would agree its better to have a bunch of servers span up but perhaps not listed, list them if the main server hits capacity, even if they die = its only 6 months until wipe a new server is released anyhow so not a big deal compared to the forever negative reviews.

Edited as somebody correctly pointed out that the 6 month wipe of server is no longer correct info, though how many will continue playing the current server when a new server is launched in 6 months remains to be seen.
JORBN: "With the release of World 16, we intend to initiate an experiment with more, and more frequent, worlds. Thus, some roughly six months after the release of W16, we intend to deploy another, new, world, without resetting World 16, but rather running the two worlds in parallel."
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby overtyped » Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:22 am

22nd_ChuckNorris wrote:
You only really get one steam launch though.
It'd really be a shame if most of the negative reviews were due to laggy servers/insanely long queues.
Also since you said that this wipe will last only 6 months, i think the vast majority here would agree its better to have a bunch of servers span up but perhaps not listed, list them if the main server hits capacity, even if they die = its only 6 months until wipe anyhow so not a big deal compared to the forever negative reviews.

I'd like to imagine jorb has extra servers waiting in the wings just in case there is an overwhelming amount of players.
Early world exploit: Put your hearthfire inside a cave, then hold shift to position a claim right in front of a cave. After 8 hours the claim will be unbreakable. Since your hearthfire is inside the cave, you can still get back inside, and leave, but nobody will be able to enter, effectively making you unraidable for the first 3-7 days. Enjoy
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby NoBizd » Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:35 am

22nd_ChuckNorris wrote:Also since you said that this wipe will last only 6 months

That's not true at all. Stop spreading misinformation and read "Game Development: World 16, with Steam" once again.
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby SavageFox » Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:41 am

22nd_ChuckNorris wrote:
jorb wrote:
The_Blode wrote:my friends last played in legacy when the game saw regular 5 second lagspikes, and they were not cool with it, and they quit and never came back. steam release is a rare opportunity to get them to try it again, all these years later.
If the server can't handle the player count at launch and my friends see lagspikes i am going to get such withering looks and they will never let me pick a game again


Difficult problem to navigate tbh. If we launch a bunch of empty servers that dwindle down to nothing quickly that also isn't great.

Thank you all for the feedback. We post these in advance for a reason. May consider various points raised.


You only really get one steam launch though.
It'd really be a shame if most of the negative reviews were due to laggy servers/insanely long queues.
Also since you said that this wipe will last only 6 months, i think the vast majority here would agree its better to have a bunch of servers span up but perhaps not listed, list them if the main server hits capacity, even if they die = its only 6 months until wipe anyhow so not a big deal compared to the forever negative reviews.

you got it wrong there isn't going to be a wipe in 6 months they're going to release another server in 6 months

I think they should cram as much shit into one server as they can instead of opening another one upgrading the existing server instead they just need to find a way to do that without needing to reset the world they won't need a server as good as eve online but I think they can get around 10,000 people on One server full of Hardware upgrades
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby banok » Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:48 am

Finally implementing just one of my excellent quality of life suggestions from 2022. progress is progress I suppose.
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby xyzzy57 » Tue Oct 29, 2024 5:34 am

waga wrote:
DDDsDD999 wrote:
jorb wrote:Difficult problem to navigate tbh. If we launch a bunch of empty servers that dwindle down to nothing quickly that also isn't great.

If you let us travel between the servers it's basically just making a really big world. No one stays trapped on any of the dead servers.


That's the first thing that came to my mind, but is it technically possible?
I assumed they already thought about it.


IMNSHO, they should have kept world 15 running, preferably without connecting it to Steam. That would provide a refuge for people who don't like the early period of worlds. Let the factions, the newbs, and the rushers cope with the overcrowded lag fest, but with the option of retreating to world 15 if it's too awful - even the new folks from Steam can presumably download an old style client and create a haven-only account. Even if lots of people take that option, there still won't be the crazy spike of people logging in on day 1 to try desperately to get a pali up before people have the skills to attack them.

Because world 15 already has high level players, there simply wouldn't be the mad dash created by everyone being sprucecaps at the same time.
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby eliminoid » Tue Oct 29, 2024 6:51 am

SUGGESTION: It has been suggested that it would be good if the block weight were reduced when moving (as it was in Legacy). If there is some consensus that this would be a good change, it is one we are willing to entertain. Feel free to opine.

Make it instead so standing character receives a block weight buff if you want to encourage tanking
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Re: Prelude: World 16

Postby Pucini007 » Tue Oct 29, 2024 8:11 am

Dixie wrote:
Just finished reading every post in this thread and just want to add that I agree with rainbow and overtyped about the bow issue. Back in legacy my favorite character/playstyle was Ranger and of all the PVE/PVP combat styles I believe ranged/archery is the best fit for the Nomadic hunter/gatherer play style. Bow and Arrow were the primary weapons of both Native Americans and the Scythian and Mongolian people of the Eurasian Steppe lands.

Out of curiosity is it not true that every Titan wears steel armor and steel armor is pretty much impervious to arrows? If so then all the more reason to make bow and arrow more not less powerful, no? Anyway, from a Nomadic hunter-gatherer perspective the ability to bring down large game with bow and arrow is essential for survival. Then again so is the ability to defend oneself and the tribe against raids from steel wearing titans so...



Note that archery on W15 was mainly used to hunt trolls when building Arena so I only understand that the archery nerf is due to that. As for pvp archery is practically useless due to the dmg which has a problem with breaking through steel sets + which makes aiming even harder if the line of fire is shown and you just have to move to the side.

I hope that J&L are not telling us everything about archery because focusing on this nef instead of researching damage in mc/uac combat is a bit unjustified why he did it.

Even if we are talking about archery, take a change and give some use to clothes:

* Ranger Cape
* Ranger Pants
* Ranger Shirt
* Ranger Boots

Reduce their % for gilding but add something to archery because "Ranger" is probably only in name.
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