Prelude: World 16.2

[zuhurat83]

yeeahh pve is boring. if only there was something else, that fights back meaningfully and play the game almost the same as me

[QueueSS]

The comedic part about this never-ending pre-wipe pvp vs pve samsara we find ourselves in is that both aspects suck.
PvP as is sucks, already made a thread on the moot detailing that but PvE is just as bad. We need something more grand to aspire towards. At a certain point you realize that you're just killing the same boring ass animals over and over again. Anytime they try to add something challenging, they never get fought as intended, they get cheesed. People completely forego the proper way of killing half the shit in this game and they only EVER learn how to cheese. That's fucked up. Devs see this and just shrug their shoulders, yet another thing 'they simply cannot do anything about' to add to the pile.
So even if I were to suggest what I was going to (new interesting enemies like Lindwurms, Leviathans, Krakens and 'boss' monster events like Jormungandr it would be pointless. Shit would be added, 95% of the playerbase will never be able to kill them, the other 5% will only exclusively cheese them and PvE will remain shit.

Sitting here and writing this, I can't help but ponder why I exactly I keep returning...
Early-mid game is just that good I guess. After that, too many chores, too many killing the same animals I have already killed a billion times over, wanna pvp, try, get reminded that it's just a running simulator, wonder why the fuck I'm still playing this instead of literally anything else, actually go play anything else. Rinse repeat every world.

Games too safe. Not threatened by PvE. Not threatened by PvP.
Great hardcore survival game. I may as well go play some old school roguelikes like DCSS to get me fix of danger and difficulty.

It's time we threw caution into the wind and just deleted the ability to claim entirely, instead relying on different tiers of wall for protection and just plain fighting to defend what's yours. Wrecking Ball is enough to get into Palisades, Ram needed for Brick Walls and then another tier of wall + siege weapon to round things out.
Short worlds, more action, more danger, more social interactions, more PvP. We were discussing getting people to stand and fight in some other threads and how to get people to do that. Well let's use an example here. Some big village is under threat of siege. They're going to have to defend for real or roll over and die.

And listen if this all sounds to extreme, that's what these offshoot shorter worlds were supposed to be for, to be a TESTING ground for radical ideas.
I bet this game would see the most numbers and would have the craziest interactions in its entire lifespan if we just deleted claims. I bet people would be more creative in setting up their bases and more invested in the game as a whole.
Give us 1 world of that. If it's a complete disaster, like the worst thing ever, then just cut the fucking world short, have it be a 3-month world. I don't think it'll come to that, but the option is there. Nobody is setting the time a world needs to stick around beside J&L and that shit isn't set in stone, change it if need be.
Even if it were a disaster, at least it'd be a funny and memorable one.

+1 to this honestly

[524u]

The comedic part about this never-ending pre-wipe pvp vs pve samsara we find ourselves in is that both aspects suck.
PvP as is sucks, already made a thread on the moot detailing that but PvE is just as bad. We need something more grand to aspire towards. At a certain point you realize that you're just killing the same boring ass animals over and over again. Anytime they try to add something challenging, they never get fought as intended, they get cheesed. People completely forego the proper way of killing half the shit in this game and they only EVER learn how to cheese. That's fucked up. Devs see this and just shrug their shoulders, yet another thing 'they simply cannot do anything about' to add to the pile.
So even if I were to suggest what I was going to (new interesting enemies like Lindwurms, Leviathans, Krakens and 'boss' monster events like Jormungandr it would be pointless. Shit would be added, 95% of the playerbase will never be able to kill them, the other 5% will only exclusively cheese them and PvE will remain shit.

Sitting here and writing this, I can't help but ponder why I exactly I keep returning...
Early-mid game is just that good I guess. After that, too many chores, too many killing the same animals I have already killed a billion times over, wanna pvp, try, get reminded that it's just a running simulator, wonder why the fuck I'm still playing this instead of literally anything else, actually go play anything else. Rinse repeat every world.

Games too safe. Not threatened by PvE. Not threatened by PvP.
Great hardcore survival game. I may as well go play some old school roguelikes like DCSS to get me fix of danger and difficulty.

It's time we threw caution into the wind and just deleted the ability to claim entirely, instead relying on different tiers of wall for protection and just plain fighting to defend what's yours. Wrecking Ball is enough to get into Palisades, Ram needed for Brick Walls and then another tier of wall + siege weapon to round things out.
Short worlds, more action, more danger, more social interactions, more PvP. We were discussing getting people to stand and fight in some other threads and how to get people to do that. Well let's use an example here. Some big village is under threat of siege. They're going to have to defend for real or roll over and die.

And listen if this all sounds to extreme, that's what these offshoot shorter worlds were supposed to be for, to be a TESTING ground for radical ideas.
I bet this game would see the most numbers and would have the craziest interactions in its entire lifespan if we just deleted claims. I bet people would be more creative in setting up their bases and more invested in the game as a whole.
Give us 1 world of that. If it's a complete disaster, like the worst thing ever, then just cut the fucking world short, have it be a 3-month world. I don't think it'll come to that, but the option is there. Nobody is setting the time a world needs to stick around beside J&L and that shit isn't set in stone, change it if need be.
Even if it were a disaster, at least it'd be a funny and memorable one.

+1 to this honestly

"Will consider"

[SavageFox]

imagine how different things would be if hermits could actually pose ANY threat to faction guys during PvP

people commonly compare this game to Rust when defending why PvP needs to be this brutal curbstomp experience for less geared/statted characters but in that game a naked guy with an eoka can actually have a chance to drop a fully geared guy with an AK47

whereas in this game even if you form a bear cape militia with your neighbors you are basically guaranteed to still get wiped by the guy that has been poopsocking from day 1, just because his numbers and industry is way ahead of yours

its a real shame they scrapped the "everyone has 100 health" constitution changes just because they didnt think through every edge case with bows and armor and didnt have enough time to fix it before world start. also I seem to recall all the PvPers flaming the fuck out of jorb and loftar for even proposing that system, I wonder why?

It's not just the "better equipment" really that gets hermits fucked. It's the combat system itself.

Take a game like Albion, for example. When I played it and went out harvesting stuff I got ganked a lot. And I got my ass handed to me being a noob that I am. But I saw what was happening. After the fact - I could think of things I could've tried to do differently to escape or fight back. I saw that one guy hooked me, the other predicted my dash, I could've turned invis(I don't remember tbh exact details, it's been some time) and went different direction. And as ganks kept happening again and again I started getting better and actually escaping, even started hunting gankers with my friends. Just because the combat was fun.

Can you imagine something like that in hnh? Fuck no.
Being a noob that I am, here's my usual experience when I'm ganked. I sail on a boat, snejjka appears. I get aggroed. I get to the shore and start running. The guy is running after me. Between trying to dodge objects, look at my stamina bar and drinking I see some "fuck you" tiny pictures appear, I hear sounds of *clank, bash* and some seconds later I'm KOed. I have no fucking clue what happened and why. What should I've done differently? No idea.
You can do that 10 times over and nothing will change, there is no visual feedback, no gameplay feedback, no experience to gain here. So I'm not getting better at all. And the system is so convoluted that walking out even 10 noobs vs 3 pvp bois is equal to 3 pvp bois vs 10 dummies running around like chicks doing virtually nothing of importance.

This is just not fucking fun to do.

they tried skill based combat before it didn't work because it was way too laggy it was fine and like small groups of two to three people but when it got up to 5 to 10 people it ran like ass that's why was never implemented they tested it a few years back it's just the way the engine is designed it's not possible at the moment and probably won't be possible in the near future either I think it was one of the most fun experiences I've ever had in the game when it was a thing if I remember right there it was like a 3-week test on Valhalla it didn't last very long I do think the water drinking and running over speed boosts and using animals for a temporary speed boost to catch people or to try to get away is quite shitty but there is no solution to that at the moment the current PVP system is about who's more persistent or more determined which is super tedious and annoying but I don't really complain about it much cuz I can't provide a solution to it so I just live with it
I had fun playing Albion online but it's also majorly flawed cuz they keep adding new servers and splitting the player base it gives them a temporary boost of new players but I see the game dying soon that's why I don't really play it anymore and the combat system of Albion online would be terrible for Haven I don't like gear based combat systems that's the biggest aspect about the game I didn't like I rather have skills and wear whatever I want but I do believe stuff like dashes and GAP closers would be nice improvements to the combat system but I can't think of any practical ways to make them work with the current system

[LaserSaysPew]

they tried skill based combat before it didn't work because it was way too laggy it was fine and like small groups of two to three people but when it got up to 5 to 10 people it ran like ass that's why was never implemented they tested it a few years back it's just the way the engine is designed it's not possible at the moment and probably won't be possible in the near future either I think it was one of the most fun experiences I've ever had in the game when it was a thing if I remember right there it was like a 3-week test on Valhalla it didn't last very long I do think the water drinking and running over speed boosts and using animals for a temporary speed boost to catch people or to try to get away is quite shitty but there is no solution to that at the moment the current PVP system is about who's more persistent or more determined which is super tedious and annoying but I don't really complain about it much cuz I can't provide a solution to it so I just live with it
I had fun playing Albion online but it's also majorly flawed cuz they keep adding new servers and splitting the player base it gives them a temporary boost of new players but I see the game dying soon that's why I don't really play it anymore and the combat system of Albion online would be terrible for Haven I don't like gear based combat systems that's the biggest aspect about the game I didn't like I rather have skills and wear whatever I want but I do believe stuff like dashes and GAP closers would be nice improvements to the combat system but I can't think of any practical ways to make them work with the current system

When I get an itch to play hnh and the server is not reset - I scratch it by planning out my own clone of it and how I'd do it. Last year, when w16.1 came out 6 months later than it was supposed to - I got to actually making a terrain system. It's done, it's working, walkabale, diggable, possible millions of 100x100 grids.
And I came to the same conclusion - the latency is the problem for combat. But honestly, it could probably be worked around by making it turn-based or semi-turn-based. Or not, I don't know, that's my completely uneducated opinion. I have other ideas, I will just try them out myself so that I don't talk possible nonsense here. xD

Currently, the problem is not that it's slow, it's just a boring nothing-burger to someone as noobish as me. You run up to someone and you spam one move. Quick barrage or sideswipe if you're a perv. He does the same. You somewhat run around maybe, that doesn't really do anything in particular I guess. And the one who blinks first by removing openings - loses. That's my noobish shallow opinion of the current combat system.
I am probably wrong, there's probably more depth to it, but tbh it's not my fault that I have no clear idea how combat plays out after 14 years.
In Albion I had general understanding of combat on the first day. At the end of that day I had ideas what to try and do next when I get ganked again. I started actually HOPING I'd get ganked while coming out to gather. Cuz it was fun to escape. I kept losing, but it was fun.
Can you imagine anyone in hnh coming out of their walls to gather hoping they'd get ganked?
Also - yeah, having moves on weapons is meh, I don't like that part of Albion. Having some additional moves on legendary weapons, though, that I'd be interested in exploring.

[Dawidio123]

Btw all this "anti-cheesing" talk is really moot. People are talking about cheesing bears, who cares, you get like 300 stats a b12 and you just one shot before it enrages skipping the whole mechanic. Arguing against cheesing and then giving bears as the example just feels like a take someone who plays 2h and maybe hunts a bear or two a week would have lmao. Reality is you need to hunt 100s of bears, if you want it to take more time for some reason (le complexity) you need to make it more rewarding or the game will be grindier which it already very fucking is.

What i would love to see is the intended way to fight cachalots or orcas with them potentially outspeeding any sort of vehicle you can have (potentially an unbalanced leftover of the good old times boats could be faster) and being very keen on bashing the shit out of it. What's the non-cheese approach? Having like 15 knarrs around to swap between? Bringing like 30 ppl to rush the whale down before it manages to drown anyone? Getting out of the knarr to swim so you can tank it without your boat being bashed too much other than when you need to regain stamina? I seriously doubt any of those were actually properly tested with "fair fight" in mind and a lot more as a "hey a whale would be cool, let's give it some annoying stats and moves, the players will figure out how to kill it who cares". Stats which btw have never been changed other than slapping armor onto everything to gate the progression at least slightly.

Edit: I actually am lowering my bar a lot, i just want to see jorb and loftar (they can 2v1) make their own chars, get the stats and gear on their own. And then beat a mammoth in a fair fight. We cannot expect balanced end-game pve encounters if the devs never actually experience them and they just listen to more ppl who don't know what they're talking about.

[SnuggleSnail]

What i would love to see is the intended way to fight cachalots

When we killed the first cachalot it didn't even have recipes associated with it because they thought it was unkillable. At the time they didn't even have armor, and didn't defend unless you were in range. You could kill one in like 5 minutes by just pressing quick barrage on a char with 100 str, and 100 MC. Any retard that could kill a bear in standing combat could figure out how to kill a whale with a Q10 stone axe, 10 strength, 10 MC and a dream. Devs didn't think it was possible for a faction of 30 with 1k stats and Q500 gear.

Any discussion about them making combat good needs to start with the acknowledgement that they not only have no fucking idea what they're doing, but that they're also unwilling or incapable of learning even the basics. Nothing can have intended mechanics more complicated than than something having big numbers

[DDDsDD999]

The real problem with combat is the gilding system. Excited to see what rework to gilding the new world brings!

[Schwarzvald]

What it boils down to fundamentally, and clearly everyone agrees,is making PvE better. LMFAO.

PvP purists stay losing. EVERY meaningless shit change has been to adddress a PvP abuse in some way. The game could be so much better if they focused entirely on PvE. There’s people that focus on a few edge cases because they’re edge lords.

The future of this game could be PvE supremacy. Community partnerships, and instances PvP segments which the admins could control and make events out of.

Imagine best of the best sending their most competent pvpers into an arena competition of sorts for arbitrary do nothing cosmetic rewards.

Small brains.

Edit: I’ve never fought in combat directly btw. I join villages, wait for group fights or ANY REASON, and then murder sleeping people or rob individuals with alts from throw away characters. Nothing I’ve ever done in game has ever meant anything from me, and I’d enjoy playing alone with friends and actually EARNING my shit, but it’s so easy to rob you.

Literally years.

People comment at me like I don’t PvP have probably been robbed by me LOL

[Schwarzvald]

What it boils down to fundamentally, and clearly everyone agrees,is making PvE better. LMFAO.

PvP purists stay losing. EVERY meaningless shit change has been to adddress a PvP abuse in some way. The game could be so much better if they focused entirely on PvE. There’s people that focus on a few edge cases because they’re edge lords.

The future of this game could be PvE supremacy. Community partnerships, and instances PvP segments which the admins could control and make events out of.

Imagine best of the best sending their most competent pvpers into an arena competition of sorts for arbitrary do nothing cosmetic rewards.

Small brains.

Edit: I’ve never fought in combat directly btw. I join villages, wait for group fights or ANY REASON, and then murder sleeping people or rob individuals with alts from throw away characters. Nothing I’ve ever done in game has ever meant anything from me, and I’d enjoy playing alone with friends and actually EARNING my shit, but it’s so easy to rob you.

Literally years.

People comment at me like I don’t PvP have probably been robbed by me LOL

fuck yes shortwad let's get that pve world

Come onnn, PvE… I’m trash and scared you might attack me!!! You already have 5,998,726 farming games for people like you.
I hope I get to kill a lot of people like you in this world.

Death is coming for you.

P.S.: Instead of hats, they should add a hand shop for people like you.

Like this retard lmao