Prelude: World 15

[SnuggleSnail]

Bro, I guarantee you half the shit in your house has slaves in its manufacturing somewhere, especially whatever electronic device you're posting from. Yet you're concerned for the souls of people killing in a video game about killing that people are playing with informed consent. Peter Singer is proven right about everything every day.


Anyway, to reiterate for the third time if you want seclusion a medium sized central spawning continent is better for you than random spawn. It literally just lets people choose if they want to play the game as an MMO or as singleplayer. History has shown the vast majority choose MMO, but letting people choose means everybody gets what they want.

It also means the market/social hub will be in a semi-predictable spot everybody can get to easily, and factions will be nearby each other to track scents/prevent each other from sieging/fight each other instead of hunting hermits.

[MaryShaw]

Bro, I guarantee you half the shit in your house has slaves in its manufacturing somewhere, especially whatever electronic device you're posting from. Yet you're concerned for the souls of people killing in a video game about killing that people are playing with informed consent. Peter Singer is proven right about everything every day.

Interesting that you bring up Peter Singer, because your actions and your words are so contradictory to his words I found.
He said: "A person acts morally when (a) he takes the interests of everyone affected by his actions equally into account and (b) as a consequence of his actions he maximizes the sum of joys or minimizes the sum of suffering."

You do neither. You don't take the interests of those around you into account (you kill for your fun and couldn't care less about the players you kill) and you don't even think about minimizing suffering, instead you love to cause it. And maximizing the sum of joys well that only takes your joy into account, because what peaceful players want is a source of riducle for you.

Of course everyone consented to play the game, but nobody consented to get bullied or ridiculed by you.
Stop twisting other peoples words and their meaning.

[SnuggleSnail]

> Purchases a PVP game
> Plays the PVP game for over a decade, understands how it works
> Gets PVPed in the PVP game
> "At no point did I consent to this"

It's like saying consensual boxing match is immoral because one of the participants may suffer if he's punched. I absolutely do not meet his standards, but I've met him and I'm pretty darn sure he'd agree with me on this one. My point is it's very cringe to use a computer made by slaves to call somebody immoral for killing you in a video game

[noindyfikator]

It's been a week, are there any new thoughts from developers side about hot topics like

• world size
• achievements
• early world trade
• remove of whale meat - viewtopic.php?f=48&t=73788
• bad hunger mechanics - viewtopic.php?f=48&t=74634
• increasing fixed hp by hearth container
• Many more which I am too lazy to mention

Other subjects brought up in this thread:

• Container expansion for sketches being P2W
• Concerns about armor scaling, particularly in relation to animals
• Drying frames should be liftable
• Maintenance fatigue causing players to quit playing
• Thing Peace making it hard to counter pclaim griefing (related C&I thread)

There was also some general concern about wounds possibly not scaling well (especially cave-ins) and some general concern about the new siege system, but no clear agreed-on objections from what I could see.

dear developers, any progress on your cosideration about given topics?

[Burzan]

Bro, I guarantee you half the shit in your house has slaves in its manufacturing somewhere, especially whatever electronic device you're posting from. Yet you're concerned for the souls of people killing in a video game about killing that people are playing with informed consent. Peter Singer is proven right about everything every day.

Interesting that you bring up Peter Singer, because your actions and your words are so contradictory to his words I found.
He said: "A person acts morally when (a) he takes the interests of everyone affected by his actions equally into account and (b) as a consequence of his actions he maximizes the sum of joys or minimizes the sum of suffering."

You do neither. You don't take the interests of those around you into account (you kill for your fun and couldn't care less about the players you kill) and you don't even think about minimizing suffering, instead you love to cause it. And maximizing the sum of joys well that only takes your joy into account, because what peaceful players want is a source of riducle for you.

Of course everyone consented to play the game, but nobody consented to get bullied or ridiculed by you.
Stop twisting other peoples words and their meaning.

What kind of midwit applies moral philosophy to a video game? Go outside.

[Aerona]

Yeah, I don't think he's going to stop just because you asked him, MaryShaw. Judging from what he says he doesn't even understand what you're saying, so if he does, he's making bad faith arguments.

What kind of midwit applies moral philosophy to a video game? Go outside.

How about we ask "who bullies people who apply moral philosophy to videogames on Internet forums?" Seems that's a case where finding something better to do is more urgent!

[MightySheep]

I'm also someone that plays each world until I or my friend(s) get ganked. It sucks and I hate it, but it simply means I'm done playing for the world when it happens. Earlier this year I talked about it, but a talk is useless since the general consensus is "u mad bro?" and the pages of faction talk in this thread shows you what an enjoyable group it is to talk to.

To me Haven PvP is extremely flawed and un-fun for many reasons, primarily which is the goal is to find people that can't fight back to minimize your own personal risk. Ideally the other guy doesn't even have a weapon and no allies to call upon. I can't really see that as being fun, but I've only ever been on the receiving end and don't plan to join the other. PvP itself isn't the goal, it's the results that people value, I.E strengthening yourself with new loot or just being an asshole because your mom isn't watching. No one will convince me that chugging buckets and chasing a guy through trees for an hour is comparable to other types of multiplayer games. You want what comes after it.

Earlier in the thread 'carebear' was used somewhere inside the masturbatory PvP spiels, which I found interesting because its origin is in Ultima Online, which was a very cutthroat world that I enjoyed despite getting ganked and my house stolen multiple times and lots of other terrible stuff that people can't really appreciate without context. I played a thief sometimes so I wasn't fully innocent myself, although I justified morally with my combat weakness, choice of targets, and the thrill of the escape/chase that seemed fun for everyone involved (and my many many failures and deaths). UO was a world that continuously beat you down, but you could easily get back up. The goal of PvP in Haven is for the target to never get back up.

Lots of game theory and such had been learned from UO, especially since the developers themselves considered it to be a design failure. Not because Everquest and the like dethroned it, but because Ultima was a series where people were meant to live true to the virtues of the world. Even though you have the freedom to be bad, you should instead be good.
Unfortunately, like UO that came before it evil always wins in Haven. Kill everyone you see, bash their boats, kill their livestock, etc. Repercussion is theoretical.

But, like UO, Haven does have a lot of people that do want to get along and be friendly to people even if it's disadvantageous and risky to do so. The two areas I've lived in had people mark quest givers and the trees/rocks were never destroyed in the time that I was playing and I had nice conversations with people while exploring. Last world we even did some trading, although we got knocked out/looted and our boat bashed and quit before we could do much of it.
Haven actively punishes it with its game mechanics, but there are good people in it. Haven really does have some strong similarities to Ultima Online; people can live a virtuous life and resist the temptation to do bad, but you know that you'll never have the tangible rewards of a malicious actor. It's kind of realistic I guess. I don't like realism.

Anyway, if you're bored, you can read the "UO Postmortem of sorts" from Raph Koster, one of its lead designers. The words written there back in 2000 are quite relevant to Haven in 2023. https://www.raphkoster.com/games/snippe ... -of-sorts/

Looking forward to this world, I hope I and some friends can last a few weeks again. Thanks for reading my story; remember to like and subscribe. I don't think I'll have another conversation again in these forums, though.

This might sound absolutely crazy but bare with me for a second. Have you tried... running away? I know it sounds stupid but like its actually pretty OP. Its really hard to die if you just run away. This game favors the defender quite heavily because you gain distance on the person chasing you with every speed boost you run through.

I honestly have absolutely no sympathy for people who want to cry about being ganked when they won't even make the bare minimum effort to learn the simple mechanics of not being ganked.

Even just having safe palisade or being aware of your escape route like marking the location of dugouts/rowboats etc. Unless you have a zerg on your ass you really don't have any excuse. I swear some people on this forum put more effort into whining about PvP than they've ever once put into learning how to not die.

[xyzzy57]

Currently, you need to use a Wrecking Ball to break into inactive claims. It can no longer be used as siege weapon as it requires permission or lack of (an effective) claim.

If the Wrecking Ball is not affected by the new (and expensive) requirements for a Thing Peace challenge, then those requirements are not going to affect small fry trying to scavenge from abandoned claims, and I don't have any problem with the Thing Peace change.

[xyzzy57]

Imagine being able to log in and decide what you want to do, like go craft some hard to get item or go do a dungeon, without being forced to do a million maintenance chores first. Or heck, even being able to not log in at at all if you don't feel like it, and still being able to pick up right where you left after a week or month long break. Most people start playing at world reset to see all the new content that came out since they last played. They don't log in to check out new content as it's released because getting to it requires running through a lot of basic content first, and they'd have to do it all from scratch every time because all the progress from playing previously has been lost to decay.

This! I've dropped out of two worlds because I didn't have RL time to do all my needed maintenance and still spend some time doing something new or interesting or actively fun. (Most recently, the frustration came to a head because of a major UI dis-improvement, but the real problem was that maintenance takes more time the more you advance, such that each time I achieved something new I was "rewarded" with extra work.)

Simply keeping oneself in curios gets harder and harder as your int improves. Good food in the mid game requires cheese making, which requires keeping livestock, which requires lots of farming. Etc. etc. It's somewhat better if you are in a large, well-organized group, as then you don't have to do everything. But you pay for that by having to do more of whatever maintenance you are responsible for.

I'm currently fighting a battle with my common sense. I know better than to start in a new world, knowing I'll be frustrated, disgusted and soon gone. I still want to. But realistically I know I'll stop enjoying the game some time between "first palisade" and "making steel and/or silk".

[pitchkor]

ALL HEARTHLINGS

before we continue our incoherent rambling in this forum - can we all take a moment to show our appreciation to @jorb&loftar for keeping this small and understaffed game up and running for the last... something more then 10 years.

@jorb&loftar Thank you

AMEN