Game Development: World 16.2

[Nictos]

I think the idea of .1 .2 .3 is so these things can be tested, balancing this game must be a nightmare

[Audiosmurf]

I personally don't really see anything wrong with animals requiring facetime, for the most part. It's always been the obvious intent that killing animals which fight back in melee is a purchase that you make with armour durability and wounds as your currency.

I have no qualms with exchanging armor dura and taking wounds.
My issue is solely that it's unfun, which is inherently subjective.

I also find MMO combat from circa 2001-2003, where you stand static and exchange HP, to be unfun. There are plenty of people who greatly enjoy that style of gameplay and enjoy it to this day.

My ideal PvE is actually like Escape from Tarkov from before they buffed armor coverage. Skill and game knowledge let you minimize risk, but playing at human/non-hacker levels, even the highest levels, involve some risk of death or defeat, especially when the PvP mixes with PvE and you're forced to move or contest space under less optimal conditions.

I think Haven could use less deterministic combat decks, and animals should only render with LoS. Also animal speed should arguably be more variable, and certain animals should unleash multiple attacks simultaneously if you aggro them under certain circumstances.

Yeah, we basically agree that combat sucks fundamentally and needs to be rejiggered, I just don't think it'll ever happen in a way that satisfies anyone at all, making my stance more of a "make the best of a bad situation" thing.

They still have the technology for Salem's combat sitting around somewhere, which I've always thought would be silly and fun to test out in Haven, but it was much worse than what we have now.

[vipes]

Toxic playerbase + absent devs

Gee, I wonder why the game is so dead.

[QueueSS]

Toxic playerbase + absent devs

Gee, I wonder why the game is so dead.

dead btw lol

[bmjclark]

I personally don't really see anything wrong with animals requiring facetime, for the most part. It's always been the obvious intent that killing animals which fight back in melee is a purchase that you make with armour durability and wounds as your currency.

Intent or not, it fucking sucks lol. There's other ways to cheese them still thankfully but its just more annoying

[Halbertz]

and certain animals should unleash multiple attacks simultaneously if you aggro them under certain circumstances.

Jorb will read only this part as it is in the end. But it will be you to be blamed for combat med bear aoe, Robben.

[Massa]

he's completely right the combat system is terrible

[SnuggleSnail]

There isn't any fundamental issue with the combat system. The issue is that the people developing it haven't engaged with it beyond a very basic level, and have never thought of a more interesting fight than "fox, but higher stats the the previous 30 fox reskins", or "all of the foxes defend constantly now". Changing combat system won't fix that

[KotMroku1]

I rmbr in whatever the clown themed world was we were charging 2 tokens for delivery in the first few weeks and whenever somebody actually wanted something delivered nobody actually wanted to do it because it wasn't worth the effort, and you couldn't even rly accept payment in bulk goods because there's only so much you can take home in 1 trip. Even if the hermit was willing to deliver to you, you had to wait like 3 hours for them to get there which is a big tax on its own

Have you considered not murdering every hermit and small size village in your local area just because you saw them? The fact hermits have to travel for three hours to deliver you anything is, as pointed out earlier, a problem of your own making. Not to mention that I sure as fuck wouldn't trust going anywhere near that pali, considering that I do remember your clown themed world.

My ideal PvE is actually like Escape from Tarkov from before they buffed armor coverage. Skill and game knowledge let you minimize risk, but playing at human/non-hacker levels, even the highest levels, involve some risk of death or defeat, especially when the PvP mixes with PvE and you're forced to move or contest space under less optimal conditions.

I hard disagree. Tarkov's PVE has always been, no matter the era, not that dissimilar in effect to cheesing animals with boats or cliffs in Haven. Slow leaning, abusing the AI, etc. It always was about making sure that you can shoot the AI while it can't shoot you. I mean just take a look at Icebreaker - it's basically a checklist you have to follow to make sure you get the first shot on all enemies utilizing very specific grenade throws and AI triggers because otherwise you die in less than one frame since the AI is so overtuned. If you follow the guide Icebreaker is routine to the point where it was the best moneymaker for a while before entry/exit price nerfs. If you don't follow it, it's impossible. Not even practically impossible, just impossible.
And yes, I get that you were probably talking about Scavs more than bosses and whatever is Nikitas newest ball busting scheme, but a Scav is just a random ass Haven bat that poses practically no danger outside of really early game (apart from like, theoretically combat locking you for a second while enemy players appear on the horizon), except now it sometimes one-shots you because it bites your armpit. I did like the short moment when Tarkov's armors weren't armored diapers covering all of the vital areas but I do understand the gameplay argument in making them so because the people who wanted it to be an immersive sim are a completely different breed than people who actually play it

thank u for the flattery but not rly I'm literally just a slightly above average rust player there are millions of us

Now that we brought up EFT and Rust I think it's folly to even have them in the headspace when talking about Haven. Not because those are first person shooters, but because the difference between spawning on a beach in Rust and a meta kit is a lucky Eoka shot and an enemy caught lacking (lacking what? Common sense, mostly). In EFT all it takes is a bush, a pistol and a dream. In Haven after first month even if ten sprucecaps jumped a guy what are they going to do? Chase him with their inventories full of birchbark kuksas? It probably wouldn't be mathematically possible to kill him even if the guy stood his ground.
The gap between someone who just started and someone who played for a while in Haven isn't even a gap, it's an abyss, and it's not even inherently a bad thing - Haven is, after all, a game you spend months (or even years, Jorbtar willing) to get somewhere while Rust really doesn't have the same potential. Tarkov in a way does but all of that progression is for the most part disconnected from the actual gameplay during a raid and while a case could be made that maximum stats are effectively making you into a demigod without any other gear (even though that has been significantly nerfed after that one wipe where everyone could max out their stats for free by falling through the map and the general community realized that it's possible to jump 2m high walls from standstill or sprint for 10 minutes without stopping), all it still takes is one bullet. And still, both Rust and EFT have hard caps on progression (I mean, sure, you can gather even more sulfur or ammo but is it really making you stronger?), while Haven has a rather soft cap, meaning that abyss is probably never going to get crossed unless we count on leading players quitting.
Hell, even in context of early world the fact criminal skills cost so much tends to protect the criminal more than the victims since they can't effectively fight back - even if they find where their shit has been taken to, they now need to spend all their LP (which they don't even have now that all their cone cows got stolen) to even have a chance of retrieving it. Skill issue, sure, but the fact literally everyone sits on needles before the pali and it's soak is up illustrates that crime is easy and retribution isn't. Sure, rage is cheap now but that still requires you to be present at all times during at least first three days. The issue, however, as usual, is that a world with criminal skills available to everyone free of charge would just be an alt Thunderdome and the topic of alts has been beaten to death so much it's now glue and sticking to it makes you die like a fly... that got stuck to... glue. I'm mostly putting this here so Jorbtar doesn't fucking see it.

There isn't any fundamental issue with the combat system.

The fundamental issue is that it's inherently best to engage with it as little as possible, either through running or through beating up animals that can't fight back. The rest are just issues and you point them out correctly, though there have been SOME attempts to make it different that still fall flat on the face because it's better to not engage with those attempts and just mix-up the usual cheese with a slightly different way of cheese.

I think the idea of .1 .2 .3 is so these things can be tested

Yeah, you would fucking think, but Object-Controlled-Objects remain the primary development goal.

[h3lblad3]

Don’t have a lot to say as a nobody hermit who gets hardly anything done except that Ring of Brodgar safe zone was a net good for the community. There’s constantly people hanging out there, people popping in and out to trade, people using for easy cross-world navigation, and who knows what else. It is far, FAR, far more active than Green Temptations’ trade zone and hangout spots in w16 were — and Irongete didn’t even bother adding them to 16.1.

Ring of Brodgar safe zone is a net positive to cross-village/hermitage community.

Don’t live near a thingwall in w16.2, but given how much I used them in w16, I can only imagine zero travel weariness to be a good thing. Somebody botfarming infinite pipeweed with 600x your average hermit’s WIL doesn’t care about travel weariness (and they even get a curio now for their trouble). Meanwhile in 16.1 I was doing exactly what Snail mentioned a bit back: maintaining villages on a per-continent basis because sailing from my island for hours to collect windsown weeds just wasn’t worth it. Ope, sorry, can’t have fun in Midgard today, already ate all my heartwood leaves. Guess I’ll cull animals and log out.