JorbStream 151114, 20:00 UTC

[Sevenless]

Best of luck with the gnomery!

[LadyV]

Since pathfinding comes up every now and then, I guess I'd better write down my current thoughts on the matter.

To begin with, I think that "pathfinding" is a mischaracterization of the problem. The real problem is the stupid clipping on unobvious corners and edges of objects and the total interruption of movement that such clipping entails, so I'll refer to the whole thing as "the clipping problem" rather than as pathfinding. Pathfinding is just one possible solution to the clipping problem, and I'm not convinced that it's the proper one. I think pathfinding is too complex (and arguably unreliable) a phenomenon to incorporate into fundamental movement mechanics. For instance, when you're fleeing from a bear (or a player), you don't want the pathfinding algorithm to cut in and choose on oblique angle away from the bear just because it happens to be the shortest way to get around the wall you simply clicked on the wrong side of. If you doubt this assessment, just consider the countless times you've sworn at RTS games for the stupid decisions of their pathfinding algorithms, and multiply that feeling by the difference in importance between a single Starcraft Marine and your main character.

I'm not entirely sure what a more proper solution to the clipping problem is, but I'm inclined to think that it is rather something akin to what happens in most games, where, if you try to walk into a wall, the wall simply pushes you back out in its normal direction, so that a simple corner doesn't prevent and interrupt movement but rather just slows it down slightly for the fraction of a second that the tangential movement will take to get you around the corner, and where one can also walk at almost full speed in a direction which only minutely crosses into a wall. I'm not sure if there's a common term for the phenomenon, but if there isn't, let's just refer to it as "push-out".

The primary reason I haven't already implemented push-out, then, is because it's not terribly compatible with the internal interfaces I use for object movement. This should of course be addressed, and perhaps I haven't made that enough of a priority (I agree that clipping is an important problem), but for now that's how it is. Perhaps it's not even that difficult once I get cracking on it.

So you might say, then, that even if pathfinding isn't the proper solution, it is at least far better than nothing until I get to implement push-out, but pathfinding movement is incompatible with the current interfaces in exactly the same way as push-out is, so that doesn't really help.

So that's how things currently lie with regards to the clipping problem. Just FYI, I guess.

Loftar I will agree what you have said is part of the issue but there most certainly is a pathfinding issue as well. I can click on the map to have my character go there and it will deviate from where I select. Its not always a matter it runs into something along the way. It at times does not get there. It may be near but it does not.

In all honesty clipping is a issue. The map being at an angle is another. But pathfinding is also there. Just fix what you can is all I'm asking.

[Haba]

For instance, when you're fleeing from chasing a bear (or a player), you don't want the pathfinding algorithm to cut in and choose on oblique angle away from the bear just because it happens to be the shortest way to get around the wall you simply clicked on the wrong side of.

There are click-intensive and less click-intensive situations. Combat is a click intensive situation, where you will not be relying on the pathfinding any way. You will be clicking right in front of you, making sure that you won't clip into anything and lose microseconds.

In less click-intensive situations you'll want to simply click once and not have to worry about pathing. You're not in a hurry, a short delay when pathing around an obstacle won't bother you.

So, even on RTS terms: you only have one marine to micro, pathfinding will never be an issue since you are always ordering the shortest possible path.

To conclude, clipping around objects would be an improvement, but full pathfinding is completely viable in h&h as well. Presuming you are able to implement it.

[Tonkyhonk]

for some reason, it reminded me of "manual vs auto" argument for driving a car. (people are asking for AT mission :p)

[Amanda44]

I'm not entirely sure what a more proper solution to the clipping problem is, but I'm inclined to think that it is rather something akin to what happens in most games, where, if you try to walk into a wall, the wall simply pushes you back out in its normal direction, so that a simple corner doesn't prevent and interrupt movement but rather just slows it down slightly for the fraction of a second that the tangential movement will take to get you around the corner, and where one can also walk at almost full speed in a direction which only minutely crosses into a wall. I'm not sure if there's a common term for the phenomenon, but if there isn't, let's just refer to it as "push-out".

The primary reason I haven't already implemented push-out, then, is because it's not terribly compatible with the internal interfaces I use for object movement. This should of course be addressed, and perhaps I haven't made that enough of a priority (I agree that clipping is an important problem), but for now that's how it is. Perhaps it's not even that difficult once I get cracking on it.

This is exactly what I had in mind and have always wondered why we didn't have it ..... thanks for the explanation as to why.

[ramones]

Everything would be fine if the hitboxes of the objects would actually be normal. However hitboxes of many things like smelters, animals, trees are absurdly big and reach out into the open space that its just so annoying to walk around them.

[Pickard]

Full pathfinding is relatively slow and sometimes counterintuitive.
I think simple edge following algorithm will remove most discomfort:

[MagicManICT]

The whole pathfinding discussion has moved here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=45659

It more or less got enough interest to become a subject on its own.

[jordancoles]

When is the next Jorb stream

[Amanda44]

When is the next Jorb stream

Yes, we are all waiting patiently Jorb, well, sort of patiently ....

Bonus points if you can get Loftar in on it this time too ....