Game Development: World 15

[fulma]

As outlined in the world reset announcement, Sketches can now be used twice on mundane containers to extend their size by one row and column respectively.

Nearly missed this.

Well... I had mixed feelings about H&H since I noticed tokens and sketchbook pages in The Shoppe. Yet still a hope, maybe they were added absent-mindedly and then were seen as too insignificant to bother with. So I commented it a bit (IIRC), and for a couple of years kept an eye on the patchnotes and other announcements. Not too much free time to engage in a demanding game I have doubts about.

Tokens and sketchbooks does not look like possibly accidental now, as the project makes a step from offering cosmetic items for money (it's still P2W because these "cosmetics" are a game too, but as too many people do not realize that, it could be a honest overlook) to a straight paid game advantage. Seems H&H is now one of many game projects that offer in-game advantage for money.

no drip
no bitches

[wonder-ass]

Saw someone with rage within 6 or 7 hours of the world start, certainly possible they had it sooner. You sure about that bro?

I'm sorry, but you'll have to explain what getting Rage has with container expansion to do.

can confirm it had nothing to do with with me getting rage in 5 hours. also container expansion is completely oke in my book its such a small gain that it doesn't matter.

[PonyStew]

Tokens and sketchbooks does not look like possibly accidental now, as the project makes a step from offering cosmetic items for money (it's still P2W because these "cosmetics" are a game too, but as too many people do not realize that, it could be a honest overlook) to a straight paid game advantage. Seems H&H is now one of many game projects that offer in-game advantage for money.

You're delusional if you think more container space is an advantage over anyone anywhere anytime.

[Audiosmurf]

Honestly bumping the crime skills trespass/rage/theft/vand/murder/siege up from 20/30/30/50/100/125k to 50/100/100/200/250/300k would curb the annoyance for sure and not really affect anyone other than early game.

Even setting aside crime, I personally think a lot of the skills could use cost adjustment with the massive volume of free early LP there is now.

[VDZ]

Tokens and sketchbooks does not look like possibly accidental now, as the project makes a step from offering cosmetic items for money (it's still P2W because these "cosmetics" are a game too, but as too many people do not realize that, it could be a honest overlook) to a straight paid game advantage. Seems H&H is now one of many game projects that offer in-game advantage for money.

It kills me inside that you think that way, but I must admit I'm having a hard time seeing it that way myself. As I see it, the "in-game advantage" gained from it is quite tiny and much more of a convenience thing than something that makes you "win".

'Pay to win' does not mean you can pay an amount of money to directly win. It refers to more gradual ways of improving your odds, ideally (from a commercial perspective) subtly enough that it feels like a minor thing so you're not really cheating by buying the advantages, yet useful enough that you feel you're compelled to pay for it because otherwise you'd be at a disadvantage (compared to having that advantage). (In fact, it's a common cliche that it's especially scrubs who engage in P2W and still end up losing.) Honestly, it's not even about the advantage it brings from an objective viewpoint, but the perceived advantage; P2W exploits a psychological weakness similar to the desire to cheat, except you make them feel justified in cheating because the game provides the option. The end result is people end up paying not to increase their enjoyment, but because they're afraid not buying it will hurt their enjoyment. (It also tends to encourage fun-reducing game design to boost P2W sales, but I don't expect that to become a problem in Haven's case.)

Some money has to come from somewhere in the end. And as long as its not coming from money hungry parties that buy a stake in the product ... any alternative is probably (by default) the better option.

How about having the money come from:

• An upfront payment (verification); or
• A subscription service; or
• Optional cosmetic purchases; or
• Donations (e.g. higher sub tiers providing no advantages "to throw more money at [them] if you feel like it")

Haven & Hearth is the only game I know of that does all of these simultanously, and now it also added 'pay to gain an in-game advantage per payment'.

Saw someone with rage within 6 or 7 hours of the world start, certainly possible they had it sooner. You sure about that bro?

This has nothing to do with container expansion. Container expansion won't have much of an impact until people have rowboats, which is when portable container size becomes a significant factor. (This is because with dugouts you can only hearth home with either the dugout or the container, never both (unless you build a cart); likewise taking both out at the same time is a hassle.) Barely anybody has a rowboat yet so it shouldn't have had any significant impact yet. Rage is only 30k LP, we're less than 24 hours in and I already have 58k LP; faction players (or really anyone bored enough to chop down every type of tree etc) should be able to get rage in 6 hours relatively easily. This is not related to payment options (though verified+subbed is obviously mandatory) but caused by the combination of the ever-increasing number of unique items and the fact that you get discovery LP for every single one. (For example, each tree gives 1 discovery for the seed, 1 for the block and 1 for the plank, in addition to additional products (leaves, eaten variants of fruits, etc).)

[Hickupp]

Haven & Hearth is the only game I know of that does all of these simultanously, and now it also added 'pay to gain an in-game advantage per payment'.

Now ?

The "upfront verification" and "subscription" deals ... those are the real "pay to gain" cases. At least to me they are.

That last (being able to buy additional storage-space for stationary containers) change seems to be a truly limited advantage.
Don't see how it would be helping in pvp combat or overall character progression, which I think is what "pay to gain" is really about.

(Sure. You can take more stuff in less time from other claims ... if you bring your own extended containers.)

[linkfanpc]

Honestly bumping the crime skills trespass/rage/theft/vand/murder/siege up from 20/30/30/50/100/125k to 50/100/100/200/250/300k would curb the annoyance for sure and not really affect anyone other than early game.

Even setting aside crime, I personally think a lot of the skills could use cost adjustment with the massive volume of free early LP there is now.

Imo it would be cool to split some skills apart, 1 thing I liked about Salem was how many skills there were I get moar dopamine!!! when I buy 4 or 5 skills instead of just 1 (ie small game hunting, quartering, field dressing, butchery, instead of just hunting) which could accomplish the same thing with certain skills.

[VDZ]

Haven & Hearth is the only game I know of that does all of these simultanously, and now it also added 'pay to gain an in-game advantage per payment'.

Now ?

The "upfront verification" and "subscription" deals ... those are the real "pay to gain" cases. At least to me they are.

Indeed. There is no experienced player who would argue that verification + sub aren't mandatory to not be at a disadvantage. But these advantages are capped: You can only verify once, and you can only have one sub; everybody who has a verified account and a sub has the same amount of advantage; you cannot spend more to gain more advantage than other players. This is the key part where container expansion differs: A player paying $1 has an advantage over someone who paid nothing, but a player paying $10 has advantage over the player who paid $1. The more you pay, the more in-game advantages you get. This is significantly different from subscription, where everybody pays $7 (or $4.17 for long-term subs) and that's it, no advantage beyond that effectively mandatory subscription payment.

[loftar]

Well, at least to anyone worried that they're falling behind by not using container expansion, perhaps I can ease your minds slightly by saying that exceedingly few people have used container expansion at all thus far. Apart from what seems to be 4 people just testing the mechanic out on a single container, it has seen zero use thus far. If you feel that other people are getting ahead by using it, that isn't happening yet, at least.

[HarryDresden]

Well, at least to anyone worried that they're falling behind by not using container expansion, perhaps I can ease your minds slightly by saying that exceedingly few people have used container expansion at all thus far. Apart from what seems to be 4 people just testing the mechanic out on a single container, it has seen zero use thus far. If you feel that other people are getting ahead by using it, that isn't happening yet, at least.

I was going to try once I got a leather backpack, since I never upgrade that.