Prelude: World 16.1

[OIchi]

so basically from your POV it's spend an immense amount of dev time/effort to basically create a tutorial that doesn't teach you anything about the "real" version of the game. Everybody is then expected to move to the PVP/real version after feeling really bad about losing the effort they spent in the month long tutorial?

no offense but like
holy shit

Spend minimal amount of time/effort to create a version of the game that caters to big part of the playerbase and promotes community growth.
Do you feel that bad about effort you spent in the game each world?

It's an option at any given time. You don't need stats, skills or deep game knowledge. Starting barrier: 10 minutes of forum tutorials and 10 minutes of running practice and you will be on par with regular faction blober. But you (or whoever you are talking about) will never do it.

You are being ridiculous. You have spent years playing this game and it seems to you to be so simple that you can explain it in 10 minutes?
Even for players with years of experience there are things that may surprise them. Obscure mechanics that may get you killed. Like Palisade splash, revoke permission, entirety of siege, visitor traps etc.
Also "taking things at your own pace" means figuring things out on your own having fun in the game instead of jumping straight to cheesing or botting every mechanics in the game.

[Crest]

Ofc, no, they won't. Most people requesting a PvE server are solo players or small groups who have never been interested in building relationships with anyone in this game.

I won't speak for anybody else, but this is my situation. I've spent multiple worlds grouped with people right from the start, took part in PvP, took part in group projects, it was okay, but I'd rather play by myself tbh.
I don't particularly like PvP in this game because it's so skewed in the favour of the team with more numbers and seeing as how I either play by myself (which is what I've been doing the past 3 worlds) or with people who are more casual than me and who play far less, the PvP experiences I've had have been quite dull. I spent 1 world with a big well-known village and took part in a few big fights that world but they were cluster fucks. Laggy as shit, big groups running back and forth building coins for what seemed like most of the fight and barely interacting at all.
To put it bluntly, the PvP in this game is ass. The only thrilling thing about it is the whole permadeath thing, because even the looting part is normal for me, I've played plenty of games with better PvP that allowed you to full loot the people you beat.

That being said if I had it my way I wouldn't want a PvE server, I'd rather we just had a bigger map so you can soft opt-out of dealing with the bigger villages (which is the main issue because I have 0 chance of fighting them, so naturally I don't want to interact with them) by moving to one of the far corners.
The best worlds we've had in this game are the ones where everyone isn't cramped into a tiny map. In the past we still had plenty of close-knit communities who purposefully built near their allies or people they wanted to interact with just fine, even on the bigger maps, but the people who wanted to see people rarely could wander off in a direction for a few hours then not see many people for ages.
First world when this 3D version of Haven first came out, I wandered in 1 direction for like 8 hours before I set up base. I never saw a single other person in the 2 months I played. Not one. That map was probably a little too big for some, but I think we should go back to bigger maps over these small ones we've been getting where you can't wander for 5 minutes without seeing a base.

For this new world I hope we just get a bigger map, but my worry is that they'll deduce that because it's a world that has a shorter life cycle they may opt to make it tiny again like this one in which case I won't be playing it long either because I can't stand the map for this world, worst one we've ever had by far.

[OIchi]

That being said if I had it my way I wouldn't want a PvE server, I'd rather we just had a bigger map so you can soft opt-out of dealing with the bigger villages (which is the main issue because I have 0 chance of fighting them, so naturally I don't want to interact with them) by moving to one of the far corners.
The best worlds we've had in this game are the ones where everyone isn't cramped into a tiny map. In the past we still had plenty of close-knit communities who purposefully built near their allies or people they wanted to interact with just fine, even on the bigger maps, but the people who wanted to see people rarely could wander off in a direction for a few hours then not see many people for ages.

There is an issue of fast travel that makes it hard, doesn't matter how big the world is and how far you go if people can just teleport to your area. Hiding your village isn't really an option either thanks to mapping bots.

[Kadais]

my sugestion:
16.1 is a season serwer when u Die here your character migrate to 16 regular world somthing like in path of exile League and standard wordls? and this regular server neverwipe and permadead is disable. Newbie players can lerning on standard world rest, more experienced can try on new season world.

[Kaios]

There is an issue of fast travel that makes it hard, doesn't matter how big the world is and how far you go if people can just teleport to your area. Hiding your village isn't really an option either thanks to mapping bots.

yes and then you have people like this really awesome guy that most certainly searched the entire map through his own effort to create threads like these:

https://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=76693

[Havenasket]

Can we drop the PvE topic? It has been taking over the thread for the past 10 pages. Devs said it pretty clearly multiple times, it will never happen.

Best thing you can hope for is they add more consequences for murder. Like reinstate summoning criminals with their scent. Or make it so nidbanes actually do their job.

Let's get to other suggestions, that might actually be implemented in this experimental world.

That’s a straw man, mate.
Nobody here argued for “turning the game into pure PvE.” The point was about private, moderated servers — with anti-grief measures, fair-play rules, and proper QoL — not removing PvP or danger entirely.

Equating “wanting moderation and balance” with “wanting PvE only” is misrepresenting what was actually said. The discussion is about reducing exploits and bot abuse, not removing conflict from the game.

[Havenasket]

I hate this self-imposed 'PVE player' mindset. Environmental deaths are fine, but player risk isn’t. Rather than adapt, people post begging for PvE concessions. The risk of PvP is the soul of Haven - tension hooks players, risk revives.

That’s another straw man wrapped in irony.
Nobody here is asking to remove risk or danger. The whole argument is about reducing bot abuse, exploit-based ganking, and asymmetrical mechanics - not deleting PvP.
You’re framing feedback about fair systems as if it’s a plea for “safety,” which is dishonest. Real tension comes from meaningful risk, not from being one-shot by a scripted alt running ten clients at once.
If PvP truly is “the soul of Haven,” it deserves mechanics that reward skill and planning - not griefing dressed up as philosophy.

[Havenasket]

Why do you guys want this game to become even more casual, Jesus. PvP shouldn't be removed, it should just be less challenging to become a proper PvP player.

Classic slippery slope fallacy.
Nobody here asked to “remove PvP” or “turn Haven into HappyFarm.” That’s just lazy framing.

The discussion has always been about fixing broken systems:
– balancing Rawhide and other one-button CCs,
– punishing exploit and bot abuse,
– adding moderation and optional private worlds,
– making PvP transparent and skill-based,
– giving players real comeback tools instead of instant wipe scenarios.

That’s not “casualization,” that’s basic game health.
If the only way your version of “hardcore” works is through bugs, scripts, and zero accountability - maybe that’s what really needs nerfing.

[Havenasket]

You will likely find that despite no physical combat between players, there is still player conflict in the 'PVE' world. Social engineering remains a problem: someone with permissions destroys your kiln or feeds your animals garbage Q1 swill. Hell, we've killed people by peppering the food on someone's table. Giving the wrong person permissions, whether accidentally or intentionally opens you up to problems. You won't truly get away from conflict as long as it's a multiplayer world, and without 'pvp' or combat your only recourse is going to be begging jorb/lofat for help with griefs/disputes. And they do seem tired of listening to us

Such a bs argument. If you gave wrong permissions you can simply fix them. It's like you think there are no games with PvE servers or if they are they are compete griefer shitfest.
Even PvP focused games (which you can argue if haven is one) usually have PvE servers or at least zones.

Proposal: zone rules per province (Green / Yellow / Red)

We already have provinces. Use them to set clear PvP rules instead of debating “PvE vs PvP” in the abstract. This isn’t about removing risk. It’s about giving players informed choices and pushing real risk where it belongs.

Green provinces

- No player damage by default. You can only attack criminally flagged players.
- Crimes still leave scents. Towers shoot criminals.
- Public infra (wells/markets) gets extra structure HP so griefing them isn’t trivial.
- Sieges disabled here.

Yellow provinces

- PvP is opt-in. Toggle at your Hearth Fire. 60 s arm time, big visible indicator.
- If you hit first while the other is not opted-in, you get a criminal flag.
- Combat lock = no crossing into Green, no fast travel until timer ends.
- Sieges allowed, but defender chooses a 2 h window within the next 24 h.

Red provinces

- PvP always on. No penalties for initiating. Full loot.
- Sieges anytime.

Incentives: +15–25% natural node Q, rarer mobs/events, small LP/CRAFT speed bonus. If you want danger and prizes, go here.

Border & anti-abuse rules

- Combat-locked players can’t enter Green.
- PvP toggle has a cooldown; can’t toggle while outlawed or in combat.
- No “border bait”: attacks within X tiles of a Green border inherit Yellow/Red rules until combat ends.
- Thingwall/portal travel blocked while in combat or outlawed.

Why this helps

- Risk stays in the game, just legible and opt-in outside Red.
- New and casual players have a place to learn without instant wipes.
- Hardcore PvP gets better targets and rewards in Red.
- Public projects stop dying to drive-by griefing.
- Retention improves without gutting Haven’s edge.

This isn’t “make it PvE.” It’s “push real danger where rewards justify it, and make the rules obvious so fights are about skill and preparation, not client scripts and gotchas.”

[Havenasket]

Minecraft etc won't happen as it requires private servers -> sharing server part (not going to happen). If you are talking about one big server, there are 999999999 ways to grief everything with disabled "pvp". There are no jannies to clean everything up 24/7.

Private servers ≠ open-source code.
Nobody’s asking to release server binaries. What people want is a hosted instance model - let us rent or create our own worlds through an official web panel, like Valheim, Wurm Unlimited, or ARK.

“No moderators” isn’t a problem either - that’s exactly why each host should be able to appoint admins, moderate locally, and build their own ruleset. Sure, some will abuse it or stay small, but reputation works: bad admins lose players fast, and the fair, well-run worlds naturally grow.

This is not about “splitting the game,” it’s about decentralizing trust so people who want different playstyles stop stepping on each other’s toes. It worked everywhere else; it can work here too.