Game Development: Prelude

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby Shadow7168 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Redlaw wrote:
Shadow7168 wrote:
synaris wrote:the level cap system will be even WORSE than the old one. free players will be completely worthless regardless of how much time they spend, and defenseless against people who play. verifying an account is now pointless. since a subscription is better for levels and quality, with or without verifying if your sub runs out, you start soft/hard capping shit.

your gonna see a whole slew of villages that only recruit players who subscribe due to not wanting to fuck over the quality of their crops armor ect ect. no one will WANT free and verified players. so why should non subscribers even bother playing?

and a smaller game world? was your goal to fuck over people like me, one of, if not the last person in the game not interested in raiding? if the new world actually succeeds, and brings people back, im screwed.

W3 was probably my favourite world, and it was about the same size. Not many people will fuck with you if you live in the outer SG's, that's not to say you won't see people like it is now, but not everyone raids people. Trust me, it's tried and tested, about enough space for the current playerbase to interact or be somewhat isolated. And, if ever it becomes a problem we can just generate new SG's, which will be even better for hermits as all the villages will have already established themselves in the center.

As for villages? The point of being in a village is to work together as a community. It's a given that a new join won't be much use at first other than eating food and curios, but the system is a whole lot better than "I played longer than you, therefor I win." With this system, if you're a free player fighting another free player, it's all about skill. If you're a free player fighting a subscriber, well duh you're going to lose, but that's no different than the current system. Free players can also be useful in a group fight, simply have the subs take the brunt of the damage while the free players bite at their legs. No need to worry about quality being destroyed by adding free players. Just make a q50 field, a q100 field and a q200 field. Heck, subs could even make q200 gear for the free player, making them more powerful than what they could've been otherwise.

Oh, and if a free player likes the game enough to max out his stats, he probably has got enough enjoyment out if it to throw $15 at the devs. But if a new player joins, sees a 1 hour/day time limit, he's going to play for a bit, run out of free time and maybe pay the $15, or more likely quit. No free player has managed to get to 50 with just 7 hours a week.

Sorry for the essay, it's just my personal opinion, but the fact that it's okay to die as you won't get left behind is a big seller for me. With a change this big, no one can predict what's going to happen, and until then all of us are just arguing hypotheticals. You could be completely right, but I'd rather keep it positive until we know for sure what's going on.



I had over 100 con with 7 hours week, and all my other stats growing pretty well...


Fair point, I suppose hunger ticks even when you're out of gametime.
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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby carson330 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:04 pm

DaniAngione wrote:
Might be a stupid idea, but...

Make it so that you can go past the cap you've paid (or not) for, but stats/skills slowly decay over time, always 'stabilizing' on your cap. That way you can reward people that are constantly studying by letting them keep their stats more or less higher than their caps, makes botting harder and creates some sort of "LP Sink" that will make huge non-sensical stats crazy difficult to attain. (and keep!)

Also, the higher the stats, the faster the 'decay', to the point that ultra huge stats could be like a temporary buff that one would apply to themselves by spending a lot of LP/food but would decay in a couple hours. The 'threshold' for that could be Palibashing amounts of strength, for example - so palibashing could still be a thing but it would cost a temporary 'buff' to stats that one would have to spend a lot of food for each 'palibashing session'.


After reading through this entire thread, I still think this is the best option that encompasses the interests of all the hardcore, casual, and everything in between. Mix this in with a subscription paid "learning multiplier" (Can't find quote atm, will look for it later) where free gets 1.0X, verified gets 1.5X, subscription gets 2.0X where 2.0X is the current learning rate (don't focus on the numbers they can always be changed), I feel like it would solve the Pay2Excel argument that everyone (mostly) is freaking out about when it comes to the level cap. I agree that a level cap will help engage and build confidence in the hermits/non-hardcore players. I for one will come out from my walls more often if I knew that skills didn't get much better than what I have. At the same time, I'd be running the risk of stumbling across a buffed character who would have a temporary skill advantage. That end-game skill advantage in fact (since it would decay) would be determined by their learning point speed as well. By that I mean they would be able to accumulate a larger amount of excess skill faster before it decays and thus keep the end-game subs subbed for the sake of a small advantage over free and verified. This still gives out Pay2Win end-game vibes for sure, but I feel like if a more aggressive diminishing-returns curve is introduced to the higher end of the "temporary buffs" would allow a level playing field by allowing free and verified to leverage their ability with strategy. A mixture of excellent and tested combat strategy (strictly speaking on a 1v1 level, 2v1's will have an obvious advantage that stretches beyond individual character progression) and a subbed learning rate (and in effect a subbed skill buff) would allow these "titans" that have existed in the game before and are what the infini-grinders are attempting to attain; complete domination. This even helps give new/current players the hope of attaining such power even if they stumble in half-way through world start as long as they keep practicing combat strategy (Valhalla?). If anything this would help mitigate the fast falling player base towards the end of world while keeping the devs paid (what they deserve for putting so much work and effort into a game) and the players treated fairly.

Feel free to rip me apart and shit down my throat. Someone's bound to do that for shits and gigs. Just hope this sprouts new ideas and possibly passes under the devs eyes at some point. :D
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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby higherark » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:24 pm

Alright jorb you have convinced me to return and post my thoughts. I will, if nothing else, support this endeavour for at least the first month as I think its a good step.

Allow me to start off by saying that I appreciate a willingness to experiment and attempt to find better solutions to the games various problems. In such a strange and ambitious game the problems that we face require equally strange and ambitious solutions. I have seen enough of indie development to know its not something you can ever truly be complacent with. At no point can you sit down and say "Yep thats good" because there will always be too much work and too much changed in each iteration. In essence, I do not anticipate any reset or update to fully solve a given problem.

With that being said, I do think that some issues have been allowed to grow out of control. The lack of a meaningful endgame in particular is something that has, quite simply, not received enough attention. This new level cap could prove to be a good start, but it will not solve the issue of player interaction. Theres plenty of ideas floating around (kingdoms, better ram timers, more flora and fauna, new skills, more trading, more resources, etc.) but its not really possible to accurately predict which ideas will work out in the end. As such the only way to find out is to try and experiment, but we have not, in my opinion, seen enough experimentation in this area. I am being somewhat unfair by using such a broad category in that I cannot refer to specifics, but perhaps this vague categorization is exactly why it is difficult to pin down and solve.

My main concern can be boiled down into the following: I believe the development resources must be refocused into providing more varied player interactions. As an example - adding a new resource/mechanic should not be done explicitly for more variety, or for popularity. With the current need for player interaction in mind, I believe that, for the next few months, new ideas should have three things:

- it ought to encourage interaction (not truly useful to a hermit and/or requires other players)
- have consequential necessity (not needed immediately, but offers specific advantages)
- no one feature should induce mass polarization (single changes with massive implications are more like lottery tickets instead of consistent improvement)

The last idea ties into my earlier statement about not expecting any long existing problems to be solved in a short period of time. As such I strongly urge an avoidance from going balls-deep into highly a complex and ambitious system. Something like the kingdom system is great, but it needs an iterative approach that incorporates player feedback and ties into future updates. Updates that, hopefully, also improve player interaction.

I am, amazingly, self-aware of the idiosyncratic nature of my ideas. Shocking right? I know my ideas are limitng in the sense that they funnel players down interaction instead of allowing greater freedom and that, as such, you might very well be highly resistant to such ideas. Consequentially, I would like for you to share a general design philosophy with the community. This would lower the barrier between community ideas and your own since we could, essentially, meet halfway instead of missing each other completely. Obviously some people will be stubborn, but I do think its better than taking blind shots based off vague ideas gleamed from disparate forum posts.

As a final note I would like to apologize for my earlier posts regarding the initial payment implementation. I still think you could improve the information pipeline between yourself and the community, but my reaction was salty and immature instead of productive. A certain degree of thought needs to go into feedback, otherwise there is no point. Paradoxically, the amount of thinking put into this post also limits its readability and understanding. Some habits die hard I guess :)
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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby Vaku » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:42 pm

higherark wrote:Consequentially, I would like for you to share a general design philosophy with the community.


I have to agree, that for J&L to share a design philosophy, presented to address broad issues about development, would do a lot to mitigate the backlash, and accelerate everyone to a point of framing their suggestions around said design philosophy.

You have a "Developer Thoughts on PVP," which many people admittedly never read or even understand when they do...

But I think a "Developer Thoughts on Development" would be a topic worth posting and having stickied in the announcement subforum.

I personally like Andie Nordgen's approach, who is a developer for EVE Online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSmI4KO9968
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subscription idea

Postby overtyped » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:59 pm

This was mentioned already, and i take no credit, i just want to bring this idea into a critique thread.

free players get 1X lp and stat multiplier and a cap of 100 on all stats
verified get 1.25X lp and stat multiplier cap of 200
and subbers get 2x lp and stat multiplier - no cap

PS: Your stat cap thing is retarded. If you are going to cap something, cap the combat stats, and leave everything else. What happens to the endgame when everyone has Q200 everything?
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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby Tamalak » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:53 pm

Level caps gated by payment model: great idea.

Hard level cap: terrible idea! Part of the attraction of this game is there's always more to do and improvements to make to your character, instead of having the weird split between the "level rush" and "endgame content" that most MMOs do. I respect that you want to experiment, but I hope that this experiment is a one-world thing! Serious diminishing returns is fine. Caps are not.

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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby simimi » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:16 am

higherark wrote:Consequentially, I would like for you to share a general design philosophy with the community.

Artists dont explain there art, they just do it, and the volume of texts and questions from the peoples in front of there creation is the measurement of there talent.(slurp)
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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby CSPAN » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:28 am

Please make combat discovery not retarded. Please.

Also ~50 people online, no need to watch it suffer, lets kill it already.
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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby venatorvenator » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:44 am

Out of curiosity: does an altar have to be built on the surface, or can I, for example, make one in L5 and bash all mineholes leading to it? And does the no-claim thing also extend to the levels above it?
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Re: Game Development: Prelude

Postby whiskeypete » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:34 am

jorb wrote:
What I'm saying is that we feel that the time has come to do a World Reset, and here's why:


FFFFFFFFFFFFF
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