Game Development: Attribute Dream

[Archiplex]

But that also would simply give you the best of all worlds of you have tools that optimize for different values.

It would, but the only cases that matters are:

• Butcher's cleaver's speed + higher quality tool's softcap
• Pickaxe's mining efficency + higher quality tool's softcap
• Bone saw's quality + metal saw's quantity

IMO removing the butcher cleaver from your belt, switching to the stone axe, then butchering is kindof cute and LARPy. For a day. Anybody who's on their 1,000th bear kill finds it frustrating. I would argue that activities like hunting/mining that you're probably going to be doing every time you play for years should be optimized to be enjoyable the 1,000th rather than for the novelty of the first time.

People would still likely optimize around which tools they carry anyway because belt space is fairly precious. I already don't carry a mining pick because I can mine with a woodsman's axe and want to carry extra water.

i dont think it needs to be boiled down entirely, having a single "good enough" butchering knife to handle 90% of animals and the last 10% being hq animals that you have to swap tools for is fine, hell i wouldn't mind if there was a dedicated "easy to get high quality" butcher tool that was just slow at butchering (i.e speed penalty) to further emphasize this idea

i would much rather just give all metal tools a +x% softcap quality effective bonus since that not only makes more sense (less tools needed) and doesn't create some weird jank situations

edit: wtf i thought this forum had automatic double post merging
can we PLEASE upgrade forum tech

[SnuggleSnail]

i wouldn't mind if there was a dedicated "easy to get high quality" butcher tool that was just slow at butchering

The idea of easy high quality but low quality of life is appealing on paper, but everybody would hate it in practice. That's basically what a stone axe is, and I've never met a miner who was happy to be mining with a stone axe, yet they're all obligated to do so.

i would much rather just give all metal tools a +x% softcap quality effective bonus since that not only makes more sense (less tools needed) and doesn't create some weird jank situations

Ye, that would solve like half of the belt related issues, but it'd be a very intrusive change and I'd still get upset that I have to drop my sledgehammer on the ground to break a warflag while some guy is trying to stab me

[xyzzy57]

I noticed a new problem a few hours after this update, that might be related.

I have a hearthling with a 3 slot belt, a key, a saw, an axe, and a wooden shovel.

When he has the shovel wielded, and goes to chop a tree, the belt does what it should, and auto equips the axe.
But when he then starts to destroy the stump, the belt does not switch him back to using the shovel. I have to do this manually.

I believe this worked properly last time I had this hearthling chopping trees, but that would have been a week or more ago.

I haven't checked whether the same thing would happen with any of:
- a different task, such as digging
- a metal shovel
- a different/larger belt
- a less crowded belt (e.g. put the saw in inventory)

[Edit to add: If you instead attempt to lift a bush with a shovel on your belt, the belt correctly equips the spade.]

Any of these could be factors. Or on the other hand, at the more extreme, belts may no longer auto-equip *any* 2 handed tool. (I doubt that's the case; people would be bitching about it where I'd have noticed them.)

Please fix this.

[xyzzy57]

My metal shovel is no longer taking the place of my stone axe when digging stumps.

I see someone else already reported the same bug I did, with a different tool.

[xyzzy57]

The perfect belt would:

- Preferentially keep one's shield equipped. It wouldn't unequip the shield except to use a 2 handed tool. And it would re-equip the shield next time it switched to any one-handed tool. ... Or maybe sooner, if I didn't use the two-handed tool for some time. (Maybe also auto-requip weapons too, in preference to pure tools.)
- Have predictable behaviour. Always-selects-metal is better than something less predictable - easy to learn to take the pickaxe *off* my belt when it might cap whatever I'm mining. Most people would get bitten once or twice, then learn.

Ideally it would read my mind perfectly, knowing that I want quality on the limestone, speed on the diorite, today, but maybe not tomorrow. But if it can't read my mind perfectly, I don't want it trying in any non-deterministic way. No attempts to guess my preferences from past behaviour, which it might not remember (how long does it keep such a history?) and might not correctly analogize with the current task. Maybe I wanted quality last week, for some particular project, but today I just want to clear the area as fast as possible. (This set of tiles used to be the best stone I knew about; now I know of far better ...)

Reading my mind perfectly isn't possible.

A great maze of settings requiring frequent changes isn't fun - it's easier to put the pickaxe in inventory than find the toggle for "prefer quality", and also easier to check the current "setting" by looking at what's in your belt. (Did I remember to set the toggle this time?)

[Archiplex]

i wouldn't mind if there was a dedicated "easy to get high quality" butcher tool that was just slow at butchering

The idea of easy high quality but low quality of life is appealing on paper, but everybody would hate it in practice. That's basically what a stone axe is, and I've never met a miner who was happy to be mining with a stone axe, yet they're all obligated to do so.

i would much rather just give all metal tools a +x% softcap quality effective bonus since that not only makes more sense (less tools needed) and doesn't create some weird jank situations

Ye, that would solve like half of the belt related issues, but it'd be a very intrusive change and I'd still get upset that I have to drop my sledgehammer on the ground to break a warflag while some guy is trying to stab me

i did say butcher tool... mining is a bit different since it's very variable, im not sure i'd support the same with mining
butchering on the other hand is much simpler since "high" quality animals can be stored and segmented off after being gathered, my usual routine is quickly inspecting every animal to know which ones i need my butcher knife for vs my rock axe, "fast" butchering all of the lower q ones and swapping to the rock axe for the higher q ones

agree on the 2nd point but my earlier suggestion of 'favored' tools works better for that anyways without this weird bypass where we create the omnitool from minecraft mods

[Dawidio123]

my usual routine is quickly inspecting every animal to know which ones i need my butcher knife for vs my rock axe, "fast" butchering all of the lower q ones and swapping to the rock axe for the higher q ones

Yeah and that stops being fun the 2nd time you have to inspect the 100 clumped up animals to find the 5 that are too high quality for the cleaver. I'll repeat, dual wielding axe + cleaver, hell, allow cleaver in the "bottle/creel" slot and just apply its speed to all butchering you do.

[vatas]

Bit clunky, but maybe just add a toggle system?
State 0/Default: always swap from belt
State 1: no auto-swap when in combat (due to the equipment CD)
State 2: no auto-swap ever (might be the least useful one)

Option 2 (with some balance implications)
A) No combat cooldown when swapping something in hand slots (IIRC the cooldown was mainly aimed to prevent instant swapping of a full set of plate armor, which made sense.)
B) you get few "charges" of free swaps that slowly restock
C) simply give hand slots a massive CD reduction compared to something like Chest/Legs

(B and C would imply that the toggle thing would still be an useful addition.)

[Dawidio123]

Option 2 (with some balance implications)
A) No combat cooldown when swapping something in hand slots (IIRC the cooldown was mainly aimed to prevent instant swapping of a full set of plate armor, which made sense.)
B) you get few "charges" of free swaps that slowly restock
C) simply give hand slots a massive CD reduction compared to something like Chest/Legs

I feel like that would absolutely be used to swap to a bow/spear, shoot someone and keep going or insta swap to b12 for cleave with a client feature then back to sword/shield. At least the A or B options. And i feel like it doesn't really address all the issues that happen in non-pvp scenarios, like mining highquality stuff with a pickaxe, or chopping a tree with a b12 instead of woodsman. Ngl snail suggestion of just applying the highest of all the tools in your belt does seem kinda busted, so perhaps using those creel slots as i've suggested previously for stuff like stone axe should allow you to mine at pickaxe speed/str but with quality of the axe.

[Archiplex]

my usual routine is quickly inspecting every animal to know which ones i need my butcher knife for vs my rock axe, "fast" butchering all of the lower q ones and swapping to the rock axe for the higher q ones

Yeah and that stops being fun the 2nd time you have to inspect the 100 clumped up animals to find the 5 that are too high quality for the cleaver. I'll repeat, dual wielding axe + cleaver, hell, allow cleaver in the "bottle/creel" slot and just apply its speed to all butchering you do.

or just let me inspect stuff at range instead of doing this weird mechanic you guys really want to push, thats actually my only unironic complaint about processing 100-200 mobs at the same time
ok not my only one, the other one is space which is why i wanted viewtopic.php?f=48&t=72082#p893686