Game Development: My Log has Something to Tell You

[Moisture]

I feel bad for the old PvPers.
How frustrating it must be to insist that the old system is more skillful, tactical and just overall better only to get told "Nah, you're wrong" despite you being no doubt the most well versed on the subject.
I mean I was shit at legacy combat since I was still trying to come to grips with the game itself (Only played a tiny bit of world 6 and a small amount of world 7 because I joined late as fuck into the world). By time I started to fully enter into the world of legacy combat, I was put off by how fruitless it was due to everybody else having ridiculously high stats at that point in the game (I'm a firm believer that the stat cap we have here in the new Haven is one of the best additions to the game, although I'll concede that the cap we have currently is no doubt a bit on the low side but still, infinite stats is not a good thing no matter which way you look at it), but from the small amount I did experience it was fun, challenging and rewarding.

I know devs tend to have this thing in which they believe that looking back is never a good option but that is a narrow way of thinking. I know you're well aware that the current combat system is sub par so I won't go into that too much, but what was the issue with Legacy combat that is holding you back so much from reimplementing it? The sign building thing already has easy workarounds that have been suggested plenty of times so surely that shouldn't have fuck all to do with it. Fights taking too long? This is a permadeath game, I don't think it's a bad thing that you can prolong a fight (providing you know how to) to escape/wait for backup/turn the tide rather than what we have now which usually results in somebody being downed in seconds providing the other guy has more agil (Because let's be honest, agility is the only thing that really matters in the current combat system). Or the opposite which has the other guy spamming parry forever and being a pain in the ass to kill.

Another issue I have, which I just cannot see you getting rid of is horses. I seriously think horses have been such a bad edition to the game, and I just know for a fact that they're never going to be removed. I say removed because even if it was made so that horses couldn't be used in combat period, there's still a plethora of uses they have that would make them absolutely essential, and those uses tend to do more harm than good. Movement options are always the biggest game changers you can add to a game and can single handedly obliterate any semblance of balance. Oh and just to clarify, this has nothing to do with "waah I don't want to tame". Everybody has tamed horses now. EVERYBODY. Even with everybody having them, they're still an issue.

Anyway though, the legacy style combat you made a test server for received almost unanimously positive reviews. I cannot for the life of me understand why you don't just go with that and refine it as you go.
Don't alienate the people that spend the majority of their time in the game PvP'ing, they know what's up as far as combat is concerned.

If this post does fuck all to change your mind, then I'd appreciate it if you (jorb/loftar) could reply saying why exactly the legacy style of combat is not to your liking. Bonus points if you don't say because it's old and you want something new or something along those lines. I want to know the specifics of why it's bad because it was one of the defining and unique aspects of H&H that set it apart from many other games combat systems IMO.

Game is dead as fuck currently, just try a fresh world with that legacy style combat and see if the majority of the bitching about combat disappears. I am sure that it will. Not in its entirety of course, there will always be something to bitch about, but as it stands now if it's not me bringing up combat then it's somebody else. I just paid 20 of my Great British sterling the other week for some sub tokens and stuff which I used for a trade and I would gladly have that technically go to waste for a new world to be announced asap.

Come on J&L, give us an early christmas. Legacy style combat, new world, bam.

[Pan_w_okularach]

nah bro you just have nostalgia goggles on hehe
everyone knows that nothing old can possibly be better than the new it's true for everything and combat systems are no exception xD

[Moisture]

nah bro you just have nostalgia goggles on hehe
everyone knows that nothing old can be possibly better than the new it's true for everything and combat systems are no exception xD

Indeed indeed, that must be it. :^)

[CinderHeart]

Indeed indeed, that must be it. :^)

Personally I am glad that perpetual stamina regeneration while in movement has been cut off, which was big for 'fights'

[Potjeh]

Every combat system Haven ever had was shit.

That is a wildly unfair statement, and I think you could do with some humility on the issue.

Haven's combat system has always been ambitious, and that in itself frankly puts it out of the shit category. It is, for example, in a tier completely above click-to-kill.

What do you want, a participation medal? Yeah, it's always been ambitious (well, not W1 combat, which was indeed click to kill), but trying doesn't count for shit, only succeeding does. And there's never been a point where combat was fun, balanced and exploit-proof. The current system is the closest you've come to it, but it's defectiveness is in the fun department which is arguably the most important one. Unfortunately, you're just going to scrap it yet again and do a new sketch from start and then scrap that too when it turns out that the new sketch isn't a finished painting either.

[Pan_w_okularach]

no. wrong criterions
combat needs to be competitive, encouraging and rewarding thinking, with unlimited number of possible scenarios
current system gets firm f's in all three

[Potjeh]

It has potential for those things, though. So it's really high time to stop scrapping stuff and starting from scratch and start building on existing stuff. The best system in Haven (FEPs) was built that way. The current combat system is a card game, so it could be improved by taking ideas from real card games. As it is we only have creature cards, give us lands and enchantments and all that good stuff and tactical depth will come with it (unless you think real TCGs don't have tactical depth). IMO the test server combat was taking the wrong direction, the number of options barely increased while the base set of rules got a lot more convoluted just for the sake of being more convoluted.

[jorb]

What do you want, a participation medal?

I can only regret that you lack faith, soldier.

o7

[Potjeh]

Well after 40 years in the desert them calves sure look worshippable.

[Hasta]

I can only regret that you lack faith, soldier.

Maybe you find it a bit... disturbing?