Game Development: World 13

[DonVelD]

I think that's the real issue with wanting end-game content in haven is that its either A: Social aspects or B: PvP, the latter of which ultimately drives (most) people away until "next world" when they lose. And the former, nobody in the community can be bothered to do it because of the small group of players that just want to ruin it.

Exhibit A: Bone Mother's Market

Well yeah you need to be liked by a faction too to at least have someone defend it when the time comes. Preferably by all of the factions.

[VDZ]

I think that's the real issue with wanting end-game content in haven is that its either A: Social aspects or B: PvP, the latter of which ultimately drives (most) people away until "next world" when they lose. And the former, nobody in the community can be bothered to do it because of the small group of players that just want to ruin it.

Exhibit A: Bone Mother's Market

Well yeah you need to be liked by a faction too to at least have someone defend it when the time comes. Preferably by all of the factions.

It wasn't sieged or anything like that. A technicality was exploited (vandalism perms in an area big enough to build a minehole without something to block it from below = free access to do anything on the entire claim) that led to the immediate destruction of the entire market. There was no time to respond, no way to defend against this except by meticulously tracking every single update post and knowing all the small technicalities of the claim and visitor systems. If you make a single small mistake, everything gets destroyed instantly.

[bumfrog]

“Don’t hate the player, hate the game”

[dagrimreefah]

Can't wait for the FEP adjustment to a sausage and new (repainted) hat....

I KID I KID WE'RE ALL LAUGHING

[mulamishne]

It wasn't sieged or anything like that. A technicality was exploited (vandalism perms in an area big enough to build a minehole without something to block it from below = free access to do anything on the entire claim) that led to the immediate destruction of the entire market. There was no time to respond, no way to defend against this except by meticulously tracking every single update post and knowing all the small technicalities of the claim and visitor systems. If you make a single small mistake, everything gets destroyed instantly.

There has been a dozen other major markets that knew how to prevent what happened in this case. Lunarius had more flaws to that market than just this, such as the lack of walls on market houses. TBH, it felt kinda baity to the hermits that entrusted them with their goods.

[DonVelD]

It wasn't sieged or anything like that. A technicality was exploited (vandalism perms in an area big enough to build a minehole without something to block it from below = free access to do anything on the entire claim) that led to the immediate destruction of the entire market. There was no time to respond, no way to defend against this except by meticulously tracking every single update post and knowing all the small technicalities of the claim and visitor systems. If you make a single small mistake, everything gets destroyed instantly.

Well that's on them, like I said:

Even if someone tried to mess with it I think that wouldn't be a problem unless someone messed up something or didn't really care.

[WowGain]

2. No real end game.

Can someone point to a game with a good end game?

To be perfectly frank with you, Haven has end-game content, but you're unwilling to protect it as such. Whales, mammoths, trolls-- you've got a lot of things that should be "end-game", but they can all be killed in the first month of a new world. That's content that should be better protected, either by closing the loopholes which allow people to commit acts of cheese, or by making that content far more deadly.

Beyond that, I believe you'll never achieve further longevity of a world if you continue to allow botting. Half of the cries of "restart the server, there's nothing to do!" come from people who've chosen to automate vast portions of the game-- farming, cheesemaking, silkmaking, steelmaking, and so on. Clay gathering (aka. gold pebble gathering) early in the game. All of it detracts from the game and shortens the longevity of each world.

You have never interacted with any of this content beyond looking at it on the wiki and it's painfully obvious

[WowGain]

I think that's the real issue with wanting end-game content in haven is that its either A: Social aspects or B: PvP, the latter of which ultimately drives (most) people away until "next world" when they lose. And the former, nobody in the community can be bothered to do it because of the small group of players that just want to ruin it.

Exhibit A: Bone Mother's Market

BMM got sieged because it was run by a clown who didn't know what he was doing and left blatant holes in his security that basically just handed the market over on a silver platter to anyone who felt like it, and the man who ran it was also widely disliked for being a serial jackass and a genuine lunatic with terrible takes on the game that he was constantly spewing.

[VDZ]

Well that's on them, like I said:

Even if someone tried to mess with it I think that wouldn't be a problem unless someone messed up something or didn't really care.

BMM got sieged because it was run by a clown who didn't know what he was doing and left blatant holes in his security that basically just handed the market over on a silver platter to anyone who felt like it

Let me re-quote Pills:

And the former, nobody in the community can be bothered to do it because of the small group of players that just want to ruin it.

When a completely unintuitive minor mistake (why would permitting vandalism in one limited area invalidate permission settings everywhere else?) causes everything, everything to be destroyed, people "can [not] be bothered to do it". Why waste tons of time and effort when there's a significant chance everything will be undone because of one small oversight? You guys immediately jump to the raiders' defense from a moral perspective, and that part could be argued (and has been argued at length in that thread), but the practical impact is undeniable: because people will destroy everything unless you have airtight security, people don't want to put in the effort to build major markets. You could argue whether or not Lunarius deserved it, but you cannot argue that it was a very discouraging experience for the people who worked on it and anyone else who would build such a market.

and the man who ran it was also widely disliked for being a serial jackass and a genuine lunatic with terrible takes on the game that he was constantly spewing.

Don't pretend this wouldn't happen just the same if it were anyone else running the market.

[Halbertz]

defense from a moral perspective

Here is the morale: git gud.