Game Development: World 13

[WowGain]

Well that's on them, like I said:

Even if someone tried to mess with it I think that wouldn't be a problem unless someone messed up something or didn't really care.

BMM got sieged because it was run by a clown who didn't know what he was doing and left blatant holes in his security that basically just handed the market over on a silver platter to anyone who felt like it

Let me re-quote Pills:

And the former, nobody in the community can be bothered to do it because of the small group of players that just want to ruin it.

When a completely unintuitive minor mistake (why would permitting vandalism in one limited area invalidate permission settings everywhere else?) causes everything, everything to be destroyed, people "can [not] be bothered to do it". Why waste tons of time and effort when there's a significant chance everything will be undone because of one small oversight? You guys immediately jump to the raiders' defense from a moral perspective, and that part could be argued (and has been argued at length in that thread), but the practical impact is undeniable: because people will destroy everything unless you have airtight security, people don't want to put in the effort to build major markets. You could argue whether or not Lunarius deserved it, but you cannot argue that it was a very discouraging experience for the people who worked on it and anyone else who would build such a market.

and the man who ran it was also widely disliked for being a serial jackass and a genuine lunatic with terrible takes on the game that he was constantly spewing.

Don't pretend this wouldn't happen just the same if it were anyone else running the market.

I don't have to pretend, because its the observable truth. Yes, markets will get targeted late into the world when people have little else to do, but situations like the BMM happen because of the owners being unlikeable shitheads.

And you can pretend its unintuitive all you want, but I actually know and played with the people who built it. You want to know who they all unilaterally blame? HATTER. Nobody else. It was the dumbest clown-tier mistake you could make. Vandalism allows people to build things. People can build a minehole in a space large enough to fit one. An unwalled minehole is literally the easiest and most well-known way to access a base without needing to put down rams.

[DonVelD]

When a completely unintuitive minor mistake (why would permitting vandalism in one limited area invalidate permission settings everywhere else?) causes everything, everything to be destroyed, people "can [not] be bothered to do it". Why waste tons of time and effort when there's a significant chance everything will be undone because of one small oversight? You guys immediately jump to the raiders' defense from a moral perspective, and that part could be argued (and has been argued at length in that thread), but the practical impact is undeniable: because people will destroy everything unless you have airtight security, people don't want to put in the effort to build major markets. You could argue whether or not Lunarius deserved it, but you cannot argue that it was a very discouraging experience for the people who worked on it and anyone else who would build such a market.

It may be discouraging, but does that change anything? If you get raided do you give up and never play again? Or do you learn from your mistakes? (Mind you, the raiders aren't the ones making the mistake - they're just opportunists. Should they be partially blamed? Sure! But the owners need to take on the responsibility and build a secure market.)

Don't pretend this wouldn't happen just the same if it were anyone else running the market.

That's likely, but if an infamous person owns the market it's basically asking for being extra thorough with the security check. Like it or not, there's a reason that people like shubla, enjoyment, lunarius etc. get hunted down, and people will take every chance to just ruin their fun.

Even you have some eyes looking at all the information you give out, probably.

[Clemins]

but you cannot argue that it was a very discouraging experience for the people who worked on it and anyone else who would build such a market.

Read that whole thread, funny stuff . But yeah I don't think anyone on there argued that it wasn't discouraging, so I don't know what you're trying to say here. I'm not going to get into this here though, sort of off topic, but if you'd like start a new post and we can go talk in there

Also real quick >

It's honestly something I don't understand, why a game with open PvP and permadeath attracts people who are unwanting to participate in that aspect of the game.

This is based and now my new signature <3

[VDZ]

But yeah I don't think anyone on there argued that it wasn't discouraging, so I don't know what you're trying to say here.

What I'm trying to say is,

[Running social aspects], nobody in the community can be bothered to do it because of the small group of players that just want to ruin it.

The problem is that

the owners need to take on the responsibility and build a secure market.

and 'taking responsibility' here means knowing the ins and outs of all related systems, with any mistake causing complete destruction of all your work. Also mentioned in that thread is a different controversial raid (not on a community project) that highlights how unintuitive this can be: Handbashing walls used to cause no cascade damage, and to prevent griefing you cannot seal or extend cornerposts without vandalism permissions on the cornerpost (not even sure if the latter is still true in the current state of the game). At some point the rules were changed so that handbashing does cause cascade damage, but as you cannot extend without vandalism this should not cause issues. Furthermore, it used to be that cascade damage is only dealt to sections with identical soak. Apparently that last part changed at some point in the most unintuitive way possible: A section without soak will not cascade (i.e. if you actually check you'd think newer sections don't cascade into older sections), but apparently nowadays sections with any degree of soak will cascade into any other sections, so once a section has existed for 8? hours breaking it will cause full cascade damage to other sections. The raiders built a new palisade, extended it towards the existing one (claim did not extend beyond the palisade), waited for a couple hours, then bashed it to take down the claimed palisade. (I don't think all of these changes were even adequately reported in the update notes, but finding out the exact state of things by sifting through all the update posts is an unreasonable task anyways.)

It's apparently the responsibility of anyone running a community project to be aware of all these small poorly documented details, otherwise you're apparently not competent enough to run a community project and deserve to have it all destroyed in an instant. Is it any surprise that only few people are willing to run community projects?

[Halbertz]

Instead of blaming "griefers", you could use this opportunity for additional social interaction. See, if you aren't competent enough to secure your market, you could just hire someone to do security audit. Instead of permanent butthurt state, there is possibility for owners to learn current autistic siege mechanics, and for "specialists " to get a few tokens for honest work.
Yes, it probably won't work for someone mentioned above, but don't be ass and you're good.

[VDZ]

you could just hire someone to do security audit.

Who and how? Anybody capable of performing such an audit is more likely to wreck your place than to tell you in a friendly manner. Conversely, anyone willing to perform such an audit without malice is likely to miss things.

[Halbertz]

you could just hire someone to do security audit.

Who and how? Anybody capable of performing such an audit is more likely to wreck your place than to tell you in a friendly manner. Conversely, anyone willing to perform such an audit without malice is likely to miss things.

You not gonna believe me, but there are "lawful good" people in factions.

[mulamishne]

you could just hire someone to do security audit.

Who and how? Anybody capable of performing such an audit is more likely to wreck your place than to tell you in a friendly manner. Conversely, anyone willing to perform such an audit without malice is likely to miss things.

Snail has unironically offered this service a number of times, yet people are unwilling to take the offer (I think the Whatever Realm market may have?).
Also, extension raiding existed, got removed, and then got readded with a fix to wrecking balls being aids.

[VDZ]

you could just hire someone to do security audit.

Who and how? Anybody capable of performing such an audit is more likely to wreck your place than to tell you in a friendly manner. Conversely, anyone willing to perform such an audit without malice is likely to miss things.

Snail has unironically offered this service a number of times, yet people are unwilling to take the offer

Ah, yes, Snail.

The griefers will be too lazy to camp the gates/thingwalls

nvmd

I sure do wonder why nobody lets Snail 'audit' their stuff.

As I said,

Anybody capable of performing such an audit is more likely to wreck your place than to tell you in a friendly manner.

[DonVelD]

*all of this*

Snail is genuinely a cool guy if you try to talk to him and preferably aren't an asshole. As I said even that wouldn't be a problem if you have allies, or are allies with him at least. Don't act as if everyone is evil to the core.