Prelude: World 14

[Pickard]

I don't think questing needs to be changed as much

not something you really need to do between bites.

How you saying "questing is bad" and "leave it be" in one sentence?

[Pickard]

I like this idea of meal charges. +1

"Too bad its too late to implement it @jorbtar"

[terechgracz]

stop crashing i want play lol

[berthedin]

Snail has a good point, spiraling is a way bigger problem than a hunger system, in a two weeks there gonna be industry of 20 bots smelting and transporting iron ore and another bot spiralling 20 thousands iron bar daily, which gonna provide us probably in 2 months to get anvil around 1,5k quality... Is that what you are aiming for? 200 ql crops and 2000ql metal???
Idk but new change of hunger system is pointless for me, would be even more annoying than a previous one, forcing us do quest 8h a day to feast properly. Spiralling should be removed and instead of that you should raise ql of ores in deeper mines to make progressive increase of anvil rather than bot spamming low ql metal.

[terechgracz]

Ye, and writing semi automatic bot that mines or looks for ore isn't that hard, you mine out slime/troll? You just have to run away and mine in different part of cavern. You just need to add dangerous coordinates to the list, how hard is that? It could be fixed by making that you can't spiral metal more than 50% of it's smelted quality. It lowers impact but also gives ability to improve tools without need for better ore nodes. Spiraling systems are made only to benefit devs by causing people to buy more tokens for trade. Every village will need to buy 1k anvil or they will be shit. And after you buy such anvil there is really not much to do. Every industry starts to lose its value and there is no point of playing.

[VDZ]

You guys keep assuming spiraling will work the exact same as it did last time it existed while it has been explicitly stated to be significantly different in an as-yet-unknown way. There are various tweaks that could drastically lower the impact of spiraling, e.g. just giving diminishing returns with each cycle meaning metal with base quality X can't reach further than quality Y.

Food balance doesn't matter anymore, at all.

Only for the purpose of faction PvP. The food system and attributes are relevant to much more than just PvP, tons and tons of PvE content is also affected and it will still be relevant for non-faction PvP between players who don't have absurd qualities.

[Tamalak]

I don't see the point of the single giant hunger tier. Stop designing the game around people who have starved themselves for so long they can't figure out any other way to play.

Make it the fourth root and watch them really suffer

[jock2]

Metal spiralling can be fine IF they remove the infinite crit quality increase and instead allow metals to be raised and hard-capped up to the quality of the hanvil. to allow lower ql bars to be brought up and not push quality beyond good ore and solid infrastructure.

This would result in a higher average progression with less need to min-max the best ore in the best furnace with the best coal all the time for the tiny gains. Bulk production would be smoother for any industry that requires metal.

[ThorleifCleaver]

I've long argued against the hunger mechanic for various reasons, and suggested various replacements (I'm mostly in favour of removing hunger and leaning into satiations entirely). But if we're keeping the hunger mechanic and using this new implementation salt needs a minor rework.

Could salt be retooled into a hunger prevention buff? That way at least you can eat all your salt then go feast instead of having to eat 3 pieces of food, eat salt, eat three pieces of food, eat salt.

Ultimately you still want to eat salt at the very top of the food % bonus, but that's true without the change I'm suggesting too. I don't think questing needs to be changed as much since it's a fairly long time commitment to go out questing, not something you really need to do between bites.

+1

Whatever system gets implemented, it shout NOT be one that rewards tedious micromanagement of eating. The "elegant" new hunger system as now described sounds like it would encourage many smaller meals spread out, meaning tedium and wasting of time that could otherwise be spent enjoying the game. This is a sandbox game, with many different activities, the raising to stats being only one among many. Ideally, this activity would be something you do, benefit from, then revisit LATER, after time has passed and you go do other activities provided by the game. While flawed in many ways, the tiered system at least encouraged taking a break, though questing and salt impacted that. You know what? Put the tiers back and do what Sevenless says, making salt operate like a hunger prevention buff similar to the satiation buff provided by drinks. Make questing work the same way, occasionally offering a similar buff that, once applied to your character, lasts until it is used and prevents the acquisition of another one. But, please, don't reward micromanagement. Why does everything have to be so goddamn tedious?

[Procne]

I've long argued against the hunger mechanic for various reasons, and suggested various replacements (I'm mostly in favour of removing hunger and leaning into satiations entirely). But if we're keeping the hunger mechanic and using this new implementation salt needs a minor rework.

Could salt be retooled into a hunger prevention buff? That way at least you can eat all your salt then go feast instead of having to eat 3 pieces of food, eat salt, eat three pieces of food, eat salt.

Ultimately you still want to eat salt at the very top of the food % bonus, but that's true without the change I'm suggesting too. I don't think questing needs to be changed as much since it's a fairly long time commitment to go out questing, not something you really need to do between bites.

+1

Whatever system gets implemented, it shout NOT be one that rewards tedious micromanagement of eating. The "elegant" new hunger system as now described sounds like it would encourage many smaller meals spread out, meaning tedium and wasting of time that could otherwise be spent enjoying the game. This is a sandbox game, with many different activities, the raising to stats being only one among many. Ideally, this activity would be something you do, benefit from, then revisit LATER, after time has passed and you go do other activities provided by the game. While flawed in many ways, the tiered system at least encouraged taking a break, though questing and salt impacted that. You know what? Put the tiers back and do what Sevenless says, making salt operate like a hunger prevention buff similar to the satiation buff provided by drinks. Make questing work the same way, occasionally offering a similar buff that, once applied to your character, lasts until it is used and prevents the acquisition of another one. But, please, don't reward micromanagement. Why does everything have to be so goddamn tedious?

I think you guys are min-maxing too hard. If FEP efficiency scaling is linear with the hunger then eating a food with 2 hunger will reduce the FEP efficiency of the next food by... 0.53% (266% efficiency range spread over 1000 hunger, 0.2% of hunger translates to 0.2% of 266% ~= 0.53%) of the base value.
If you eat foods for 100 hunger you will reduce FEP gains by 26% (so from 300% at 0 hunger to 274% at 100 hunger). 100 hunger - that's a length of the old 300% hunger bar.
Is it really that big difference to suddenly do those weird micromanagement gymnastics?

And even if it's not linear I think the values are still going to be too small difference to warrant all this micromanagement.

edit: if anything then the current implementation promoted such micromanagement more, where you would balance at the border between 300% and 200% ranges. As soon as hunger falls to 300% you eat something and then wait for the decay, which is faster in 200% range, to return you to 300%. Is anyone doing such stuff?

Honestly, I am more afraid that the new implementation will make the new meta to eat as much as possible, rather than dealing with hunger. And the winner party will be not the one capable of keeping hunger low (because that will be impossible), but the one able to mass produce more food.