Game Development: Darkwood Gilding

[Reiber]

lets face it , the solution to the pvp "problem" isnt too much pvp, its not enough of it, an part of the playerbase comes through the game, and still panic when they are attacked by an bat 3 weeks in, some people take worlds to get an rudimentary knowledge in fighting even pve. combat is obscure, and hard to understand. the base client ui, dosnt help, and there is litterally no opportunity too learn, aside from lateworld other players teaching you. you dont learn running against animals, cause they all are faster than you, and its way more easy too cheese them on something, and most people when attacked, just panic, run against an cliff, and instead of spamming devenses they try too reason in chat with somebody that made up there mind on killing them minutes ago.

making an actually"safe" base is way harder than it should be, given the multiple layered defence options given. add too that , exploits,bugs,and the way too bypass multiple of those systems, resulting in an state, where people looking for an fight complain about the fact that they cant reasonably raid somebody, while simultaneusly allowing people to be raided without siege or safety, just because they set up an door the wrong way, or on the wrong spot.

as i see it, if average people could try to defend themself, at least from instant death. if siege mechanics where sensible for both sides, and 14 angry midgame sprucecaps could actually pose an threat against 1steelboi. that was taught running at the behining of the world. pvp interested players would get more actual fights, instead of clobbing helpless sealcubs, or people just standing behind walls all scared. and people wouldt feel as if seeing an autist on the map meant instant, nonavoidable death.with months of progression going down the drain

[Zentetsuken]

The Problem

The problem is that combat is absolutely terrible beyond repair.



Why?

PvE is manageable (but still trash) because practically every animal in the game can be cheesed in a variety of different ways.

PvP is not manageable (for the vast majority of the playerbase) because it has evolved over the last 5-10 years to be completely inaccessible to new players. To be in a position where you have a fair chance to survive a PvP attack from somebody in a faction-level group it requires nolifer time commitments, intermediate game knowledge as well as a very specific knowledge about PvP encounter metas. Not even the people who play this game specifically for PvP agree that PvP is in a good state.

The devs have been tweaking and attempting balance the current system with minor and major rewrites that all somehow end up having exactly the same problems.

Over 4-5 iterations of Haven combat have devolved in to "who can create themselves the most significant edge by taking advantage of exploits, overlooked interactions, custom client features and legitimate but unintuitive pvp-specific strategies.


That being said,

Ofcourse it is normal for games with PvP or any combat to have metas and "best strategies" that separate incredibly dedicated players from new ones, but I would argue that the best of these games manage the situation in competent ways.

From arenas, ranks, actual safe zones, zones that restrict player levels, real consequences for killing, constant updates and attention to developing metas, and surely lots more strategies.

I do not think it is realistic or honest to assume that a dev team of 2 people who have had practically zero experience or interaction with pvp through its many years of development are capable of taking the current system and tweaking it in to something reasonable. As much as dumping updates like gildable armor on us is proof of this, I think the devs themselves would openly agree to this themselves if they were being honest.


Potential Solutions?

I'm not sure how this problem can even be tackled without a completely blank-slate-approach to combat.

A brand new system for combat that is developed from the ground up, paired with animal AI rewrites (that is actively used by the developers or new dev team members who monitor combat specifically from an unbiased position and collect data regarding metas, broken features, unintended interactions and so on)


The solution is not going to be "lower the bar" or "add dungeon rewards" or "force people to interact with pvp" I am not even sure how these ideas are relative to the problem at all.

The real solution is going to have to be something dramatic that fundamentally changes "what it means to be good at combat." Right now the way to be the best at combat is simply knowing how to abuse broken and unintentional mechanics and retarded metas like "carry dozens of liters of water and drink with flawless timing and consistency" the best. I think we ALL agree that this is super, super dumb and unfun.

That being said,

We all know this is an indie game with a low no budget and that major updates like total rewrites of combat might take years. So are we ready to be realistic about how to tackle this?

Bandaids have been regarded as reasonable and realistic solutions because they require little time and investment, but even after dozens of bandaids and minor rewrites and re-balances combat is still trash.

Is it reasonable to keep a broken and bad combat system that punishes new players, gives them no realistic opportunity to defend themselves and even learn how to while we wait potential years for a solution? Ofcourse not.

Therefore the most logical and reasonable solution is to remove PvP from the core game or leave it in its current state but make it optional while something is developed in the background.

inb4 a shitpost derailing non-reply from audiosmurf

[Audiosmurf]

Try being convincing instead of verbose, I know it's hard for someone like you to tell the difference.

[Delamore]

I think what a lot of you are missing is not that the random players that get run into don't think they're prepared to fight due to their stat or skill vs the enemy but rather that they are not setup to fight.
Like unless a player always has a set of gear for PVP on and basically their entire belt devoted to water whenever they leave their base then they already know they're not prepared to go up against someone who came looking for a fight.
I think doing something about carrying / drinking an absurd amount of water being a basic requirement to even properly participate in a pvp encounter could help in that regard.
Always get a laugh seeing old pictures of legacy haven where a fighters inventory was almost entirely devoted to waterskins, now instead of surrendering your inventory you surrender your quality of life toolbelt slots

[Reiber]

The Problem

sure, combat is bad, its borderline retarded, like many mechanics in this game that arent as fundamental.
but your problem with combat is that it exists



Why?


pvp is unaccesable. and the significance of your loss scales inverted with your chances of winning.

Over 4-5 iterations of Haven combat have devolved in to "who can create themselves the most significant edge by taking advantage of exploits, overlooked interactions, custom client features and legitimate but unintuitive pvp-specific strategies.
i would give you an point there again, but thats an general state the game is in

That being said,



From arenas, ranks, actual safe zones, zones that restrict player levels, real consequences for killing, constant updates and attention to developing metas, and surely lots more strategies.
the problem i have with your posts isnt that you say pvp is broken, but all your solutions come from an place, where you rather didnt want pvp too exist,that list as an example. i´m just not at that place



Potential Solutions?

I'm not sure how this problem can even be tackled without a completely blank-slate-approach to combat.

The solution is not going to be "lower the bar" or "add dungeon rewards" or "force people to interact with pvp" I am not even sure how these ideas are relative to the problem at all.
1. if people wouldnt be barred of from pvp to an point where they are afraid of trying, we had way more ways tpp balance pvp. who know if your 5 spruces can save the 6th from dieng to your hoboneighbour, none is willing to bet there life and possiby base on the hope this isnt an factionmember wearing leatherarmour just too bait noobs out.

The real solution is going to have to be something dramatic that fundamentally changes "what it means to be good at combat." Right now the way to be the best at combat is simply knowing how to abuse broken and unintentional mechanics and retarded metas like "carry dozens of liters of water and drink with flawless timing and consistency" the best. I think we ALL agree that this is super, super dumb and unfun.
again, problem identievied correctly, i just dont like your conclusions.

That being said,

Therefore the most logical and reasonable solution is to remove PvP from the core game or leave it in its current state but make it optional while something is developed in the background.[/b]

no, you had that solution in your head before you even thought about the problem, i am at jorbs side there. the sheer prospect of being killed,ganked, raided ,your village pillaged and burned down, and someone doing unspeakable things too your skelletons, adds an lot too the game, and i think actually leads too an way more healty gameplay. the way these healthy threats are handled is just atrocious.
its good and suspensefull to be afraid of bandits outside, its garbage that if one shows up on your minimap your already surrunded and dead.
its good too keep your base save so you cant be robbed for all your progress and work. its retarded that setting up your gate the wrong direction , or not being able too destroy 10000000000000000 signposts set up by bots nullivies that.
inb4 a shitpost derailing non-reply from Reiber

[fairystyle]

Very grateful for paving fix! Its already way way way better! Allows to make nicer and more complex paving artz!!!! Love it! I hope black ore will join the basalt and also will have inner outlines laying under other stone

[Valten21]

I feel like the best solution is to bring back brick bashing

[SnuggleSnail]

tfw brick bashing used to be a real thing that happened, and now the game has no raids, siege, or even murder

[Valten21]

I only played seriously from world 3-6 but world 3 was definitely unique. It was larpy and peaceful, but you could still be a criminal... you just had to be ready to pay the price that was set by the strongest players. No matter how "good" you were at pvp if you killed a bunch of people you could just kill me while I slept or worked

I'm not sure how it would play out these days though, I think both the top villages at the time had somewhat good intentions and were not set on just killing everyone they came across, AND there was the issue that they were not actually strong PVP'ers (I feel like the strongest PVP'ers in a game like this are the ones who run around killing everyone through the experience of it). Maybe the demographic has changed to much and the top players would just kill even more "spruce caps" then they already do... but ALSO maybe the thought of your murder scents ending up the hands of the other groups of psycho's would make you think twice. REAL impact not just smashing some spruce cap and sitting in your base for 7 days.

Thats it bring back wall bashing

[Zentetsuken]

W3 was definitely best world but the type of player has definitely changed over the years.

Back then there were people actively policing supergrids to hunt for scents and help people when they got killed or sieged because that was just part of the larpy way they played and being a "police officer" was potentially lucrative I guess. Nowadays "top faction" players are stuck in an infinite circlejerk of boring scheduled pvp group fights and everybody quits after a month.

As much as I enjoyed it, I don't think it is possible to get back to that place. The players have definitely changed as much as the game has.