Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby noindyfikator » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:41 am

Instead of patchma we got crashma
W3 - W10 - Hermit / small plots with spruces
W11 - The Friend Zone
W12 - KoA aka Kingdom of Ashes
W13 - Monke
W14 - Alpaca Farm aka Animal Planet
W15 - Whatever Bay - The Greatest Siege Defense Victory in Haven History - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyUveSeZ0Q
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Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby Zentetsuken » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:04 am

I would personally be okay with tuesday being rollback day instead of update day but maybe next week can the rollback be a couple years instead of a couple hours
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Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby Mopstar » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:52 pm

Zentetsuken wrote:I would personally be okay with tuesday being rollback day instead of update day but maybe next week can the rollback be a couple years instead of a couple hours


only if the old players would come back too :(
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+1 I don't know how he did it, but Mopstar did steal his own stuff. You have to be a pretty hardcore thief to be able to steal your own things!
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Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby SnuggleSnail » Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:07 pm

when will valten return to drown me in a 1.5 inch puddle :(
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Drink button essay

Postby vatas » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:00 pm

We should make actionable list of features that client needs for PvP.

I meant to list other stuff as well, but the first part about drink button ballooned into this manifest, so I start by just posting it.

I doubt anyone taking PvP seriously will ever PvP with default client, but as long as the features are implemented in even somewhat acceptable way, public clients will have at least that and people aiming to create a "pvp client" willing to settle with it have less stuff to duct-tape on, similar to when Jorb relented and added Ctrl+G to the default client.

Disclaimer due to following issues with the game, I don't know how to PvP (at least nowhere on the level that people like Snail are able to) despite playing this game for 10 years:

SnuggleSnail wrote:[*] Lack of experience, and no reasonable way to gain it without basically asking somebody to mentor you
[*] Lack of guides / competent wiki
[*] Nothing to push average players into minor conflicts where they can gain experience / confidence
[*] No PVE encounters or similar that give experience that could transfer to PVP


I may miss something important or make other mistakes. I will mark parts where I particularly end up speculating/assuming with red.

Drink button

Asking for this feature is quickly establishing itself as a meme, and while you can bind waterskins to the default hotbar, there are multiple issues with that compared to having "autodrink" -script:
-Amount of waterskins (or other water vessels) you can bind to default hotbar is limited, and you presumably want to bind other stuff into it as well.
-As waterskins run out of water, the button to press for drinking changes.

After we got that out of the way I will do my best to explain why drinking water is such a key component.
-PvP meta is that one of the sides decides they are the "Team with disadvantage" and starts running away from the another team. Ultimately the goal is to drop aggro and Hearth back home, reach a safepali, or rendezvous with reinforcements.
-Running consumes stamina.
-Stamina can be recovered by drinking water, at the cost of Energy.

This means that fights are often largely decided by the fact which side has more water (water quality acting as force multiplier.) Autodrink script helps you to make the most effective sips when you are at the stamina range between "too low to run" and "below 90%" (drinking with more than 90% stamina wastes both water and energy as sip is always 0.05 liters and you don't get Energy discount from stamina overflow.

PvP fight has enough stuff going on that you really don't want to be forced to replace keybinds to empty waterskins with ones to filled one, all the while having to keep track which keybinds will actually make you drink.

Imagine if instead of simple WASD movement, Counter-Strike would require you to play a minigame of moving one foot and then another in sync. Of course you can argue that it would raise the game's skill ceiling. However the actual main method to win the match - shooting enemy players with a gun so that they die - already has a rather high skill ceiling. The minigame would just make the game harder to get into and learn properly.

Edit: some paraphrasing to make the post more readable.
Last edited by vatas on Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The most actively maintained Haven and Hearth Wiki (Not guaranteed to be up-to-date with all w14 changes.)

Basic Claim Safety (And what you’re doing wrong) (I recommend you read it in it's entirety, but TL:;DR: Build a Palisade.)

Combat Guide (Overview, PVE, PVP) (Tells you how to try and escape, and make it less likely to die when caught.)
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Other features

Postby vatas » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:15 pm

Switching a target
Surprisingly already present in Default Client and bound to Tab (unless I've changed it myself earlier.)

Toggle "maintain aggro" and "drop aggro"
I'm assuming situation can change quickly enough that you suddenly want to toggle it other way around without having to pixel hunt the correct icon to click with mouse. Also would have a PvE application when it comes to the taming system.

Movement vector
Shows how far the current move command will take you and helps noticing possible objects in the way.

Visual clarity
It is generally agreed that you need the ability to hide objects (mostly trees) and preferably a "flat world" to always see where you're going.
The most actively maintained Haven and Hearth Wiki (Not guaranteed to be up-to-date with all w14 changes.)

Basic Claim Safety (And what you’re doing wrong) (I recommend you read it in it's entirety, but TL:;DR: Build a Palisade.)

Combat Guide (Overview, PVE, PVP) (Tells you how to try and escape, and make it less likely to die when caught.)
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Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby bumfrog » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:21 pm

Yeah we need a drink button badly. Here are some other important changes nobody’s suggested yet tbh:

- A dedicated market place or safe zone and can be travelled to by anybody once they hit a certain milestone, like charter stones or something. With a clean-ish auction house UI. Not sure how a centralised currency would work, could just do the same thing markets do now and have silver/gold coins that can be traded for sub tokens, since there's literally thousands of those in circulation anyway, or maybe just let the players figure it out what they want to trade and what they want to use for a price. As much as I like player-run markets and seeing cool builds, nobody can be bothered to commit to that scope and maintenance anymore.

- Address credo issues, there were some steps in the right direction with this this world. but I would still like to see something better instead of the current state of credos. I see no reason credo's can't have a set 'tier' for how many quests each one has per level, there's no reason it should be possible to start the fisherman credo at 13 quests per level if you do all other credos first, as an extreme example. Its an all round awful player experience. Simulataniously, Scholar takes far too long, but would probably be fixed if the quests per level was capped at something actually reasonable. Blacksmith lets us build bigger smelters that an entire village can share, so why can't somebody with herder share their branding iron with somebody else in the same village to apply the herder buffs to animals instead of relying on account sharing or just botting.

- The hunger/fep system just needs a complete reimagination tbh, but I don't have any viable solutions for that off-hand.

- Honestly, if there was a debate for the removal of PvP, i would be on the side of removing it because I don't see enough viable solutions to fix the issues that having it brings to the game now. The stat equalization thing was a nice change for sure, levels the playing field in a 1v1, but as soon as one group with no life decides they want to remove you from the game they'll spend 2 weeks trying do to that and who the fuck has time to deal with that now that most of the player base are actually adults with lives and families to deal with.

- Remove fucking boulders from mining. sure its nice for credos, but i'd rather have an 'excavate boulder' option that has a high chance of failure, than just randomly getting a fucking boulder in the face when mining.

- I do actually like the curiosity system, I just wish there wasn't such a huge gap between dog-shit and god-tier curiosities. a bit of a rebalance of early and mid-game stuff would be nice
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Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby lordgrunt » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:10 pm

Srsly, why are you posting walls of text in this thread? Seems like a lot of wasted effort. Also, most of that was already stated in other recent topics, much more on point
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Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby noindyfikator » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:15 pm

lordgrunt wrote:Srsly, why are you posting walls of text in this thread? Seems like a lot of wasted effort. Also, most of that was already stated in other recent topics, much more on point


Ye, there are billions topic about it but devs dont' care
W3 - W10 - Hermit / small plots with spruces
W11 - The Friend Zone
W12 - KoA aka Kingdom of Ashes
W13 - Monke
W14 - Alpaca Farm aka Animal Planet
W15 - Whatever Bay - The Greatest Siege Defense Victory in Haven History - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyUveSeZ0Q
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Re: Bug consequences: Rollback 2023-01-25

Postby Agrik » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:55 pm

:shock:
I hope I don't sound too harsh, but...
loftar wrote:The main problem with rollbacks, even more than losing the last bit of gameplay, is that different parts of the state are saved at different times, which causes the saved state to become inconsistent.
I'm afraid this needs to be fixed with top priority. IMHO even a half-decent project can't afford having inconsistent backups that result in objects lost due to corrupted transactions. It isn't much a backup, TBH.

loftar wrote:but at this point there is unfortunately not a whole lot I can do about it
Yet there is. W15. Because a full restart will be consistent at least. Or... does an inconsistent rollback affect Shoppe items that persist between worlds?

There is no need to start a new world instantly, sure... maybe there is even not much point to rush it at all before inconsistent rollbacks are fixed.
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