Content deny strategy

[Archipenos]

• Rageless fighters/Safepalis: I guess the point here is that we dislike the Rage change from 16.1, and fair enough, it was meant as experimental. I don't quite like the distinction between visitor gates and non-visitor gates, and should like to see that removed. Should we, quite simply, make all gates visitor gates, without further qualifiers? Is there no case to be made for a sprucecap protection program, and no conceivable, good, mechanic, by which noobs can be eased into the game? I love that the predatory gameplay exists, and consider it a core feature, but I feel that I struggle a bit to maintain a healthy eco-system. Tragedy of the commons and such! "If I don't kill this sprucecap, someone else will"! To be sure, alts being useful is also a problem, so new characters should arguably be trivial to kill proper. You see my design problem, I trust? Help me help you!
• Steel locks: Agree that locked buildings are prolly a bit cancerous, quite simply. I think this could be changed without too much controversy.
• Sleighs/skis/sleds: Mostly a winter problem, and I have found that to be a mitigating circumstance as I don't know that I mind that a part of the year is really dangerous. The obvious fix would be to have "Rawhide!" hit these badbois, and we have considered that a couple of times, but not acted on it. Could add a timer to mounting the sled in particular, or w/e.
• Thicket: No love for that change either, I take it? I quite enjoy this mechanic conceptually, and would love to see a good explanation of why it is bad.

I think you've got to figure out who you're pandering to, or not to pander to them at all. I was just outside smoking a cigarette after deleting the game again. I play specifically on steam to prop up your engagement numbers on there. I genuinely try to bring success to the game, getting new players in, all that. It's all to say that, even as a humble user, i do care. I played Darkfall back in the day, and i've had my toes in full PvP games for quite some time.

Anyways, while I was smoking, i realized that a few things genuinely at odds in this game: The value of life in Haven is less than none, the capacity for self-defense for 90% of the players is none, and there is permadeath. Any time I have been killed, my belongings have been thrown into the ocean in front of me. The only gain the other player experienced was a small dopaminergic surge brought about by schadenfreude. This is commonly called griefing. In Darkfall I was once griefed in this manner: In a neutral city, you could declare war on an unsuspecting clan, removing protections for both sides, allowing you to kill someone dumb enough to afk at a crafting station while guilded. This is called clandecking. I was one such a fellow. Lost loads of mats for my guild, plus my gear. I did not, however, lose my entire character, so it was experienced primarily as an inconvenience and a real sore moment, not as something genuinely game ruining. The smaller cost to PvP meant that i often found myself seeking out PvP, despite being undergeared and in a small clan. Full loot but not permadeath.

In this game, it is the opposite. PvP is rare but important. And importantly, it does not exist in the sense of "I and a player may fight," but rather in the sense of "I may be killed at some time by a player." Due to the super stats-based nature of the game, the vast majority of players cannot remotely defend themselves. One of the fellows who killed me, some weeks later, attacked another fellow that mines for his village. He also does some PvP on the side, or at least is open to it. With five times my strength and ten times my agility, he still was forced to flee and flee only. Self-defense is nonexistent. Whatever elements of nature you are hoping to shine through simply do not shine through. Because of this and despite loving PvP in any other mmo i've played, I despise PvP and hide incessently. Recently I deleted again, realizing that sunk cost fallacy had led me to continue playing. In the end, though, due to the cumulitive, iterative nature of q spiraling, I realized that when I was killed for that small minute of schadenfreude, what was destroyed there was not simply my character, but the potential for impacting 16.1 in any meaningful way. I wanted an orchard, a restaurant, anything at all to create something interested and social within the game. Someone who plays explicitly to reduce sociality came and stopped that, and stopped it so hard that it isn't possible to recover from it regardless of play time logged. After one thousand hours, my q will be lower than the one who was not killed and clocked one thousand and ten hours, and so on forever.

My point is this. The above dude bitching about safepalis is why the game cannot be meaninfully successful. Pandering to sixty antisocial dipshits might not be the move. What is a safepali, anyways? And genuinely, i've always read this game as a sandbox (necessarily including PvP), not as a PvP game (unfortunately including other elements.). Hilariously, every complaint he listed is one based of off "This takes me time to counter." but when the opposite is said (I did not invest the resources I had into PvP minmaxing), it is being a carebear? Locks can be picked. Walls can be sieged. Thickets effect the speed of who is being chased and the chaser. They can also use sleds. Every. Single. Point. is "make it so they stand still for me, dad!"

In the spirit of PvP mmos, and of mean-heartedness, and of honesty, this dude and many of the "PvP" dudes are, and i mean this, carebeared as fuck. They don't fight each other. They whine when a non-PvP oriented player has even the remotest possibility of escape. It's like saying the dogs that they kick ought also to not have legs to run, or teeth with which to bite, or mouths at all to make such loathsome crying sounds. They are asking you to make a dumb fucking game, jorb.

Sincerely, your biggest fan and someone who can't play your game until it is somehow fixed.

P.S. as proof that they don't want more PvP, just easier griefing, let me suggest PvP stat adjusting like in instanced PvP scenarios. And only in PvP, so that you don't have to rework your entire game. Turn stat differences into ratios and let that be reflected as your general capacity in that stat so that skilled spruces can put up a fight. Boom, now everyone can (and will) fight. That's all they want, right? "b-b-b-but i earned that 3000 strength, i should be able to 1 shot them, muh realism." I'm telling you dude, they do not want more PvP.

[SnuggleSnail]

A lot of what you said is wrong, but you're 100% right that Jorbtar is pandering to exclusively griefers.

Nobody who wants to PVP would choose a game where every fight looks like:
1) spend 3 hours traveling
2) once you get there, 10% chance of even seeing a person
3) if you're lucky enough to see somebody there's a 90% chance they just run into a safepali
4) if you're lucky enough that they fight back, probably only 0-2 out of 10-20 people will get KOed
5) the people who got KOed will probably never die unless they're retarded
6) even if somebody does manage to by some miracle die it's barely impactful

PVPers or PVP adjacent people used to be the majority of the playerbase, until in the name of protecting casuals the PVP was made so tedious and boring only NEETs can rly engage. Meanwhile, killing hermits is still pretty consistent/easy/low effort. Griefer paradise, shit PVP.

[Regulus2424]

proletariat revolution

nice effortpost! unfortunately, you forgot to buy 20 gold subs along with writing it

[Robben_DuMarsch]

• Rageless fighters/Safepalis: I guess the point here is that we dislike the Rage change from 16.1, and fair enough, it was meant as experimental. I don't quite like the distinction between visitor gates and non-visitor gates, and should like to see that removed. Should we, quite simply, make all gates visitor gates, without further qualifiers? Is there no case to be made for a sprucecap protection program, and no conceivable, good, mechanic, by which noobs can be eased into the game? I love that the predatory gameplay exists, and consider it a core feature, but I feel that I struggle a bit to maintain a healthy eco-system. Tragedy of the commons and such! "If I don't kill this sprucecap, someone else will"! To be sure, alts being useful is also a problem, so new characters should arguably be trivial to kill proper. You see my design problem, I trust? Help me help you!
• Steel locks: Agree that locked buildings are prolly a bit cancerous, quite simply. I think this could be changed without too much controversy.
• Sleighs/skis/sleds: Mostly a winter problem, and I have found that to be a mitigating circumstance as I don't know that I mind that a part of the year is really dangerous. The obvious fix would be to have "Rawhide!" hit these badbois, and we have considered that a couple of times, but not acted on it. Could add a timer to mounting the sled in particular, or w/e.
• Thicket: No love for that change either, I take it? I quite enjoy this mechanic conceptually, and would love to see a good explanation of why it is bad.

I think you've got to figure out who you're pandering to, or not to pander to them at all. I was just outside smoking a cigarette after deleting the game again. I play specifically on steam to prop up your engagement numbers on there. I genuinely try to bring success to the game, getting new players in, all that. It's all to say that, even as a humble user, i do care. I played Darkfall back in the day, and i've had my toes in full PvP games for quite some time.

Anyways, while I was smoking, i realized that a few things genuinely at odds in this game: The value of life in Haven is less than none, the capacity for self-defense for 90% of the players is none, and there is permadeath. Any time I have been killed, my belongings have been thrown into the ocean in front of me. The only gain the other player experienced was a small dopaminergic surge brought about by schadenfreude. This is commonly called griefing. In Darkfall I was once griefed in this manner: In a neutral city, you could declare war on an unsuspecting clan, removing protections for both sides, allowing you to kill someone dumb enough to afk at a crafting station while guilded. This is called clandecking. I was one such a fellow. Lost loads of mats for my guild, plus my gear. I did not, however, lose my entire character, so it was experienced primarily as an inconvenience and a real sore moment, not as something genuinely game ruining. The smaller cost to PvP meant that i often found myself seeking out PvP, despite being undergeared and in a small clan. Full loot but not permadeath.

In this game, it is the opposite. PvP is rare but important. And importantly, it does not exist in the sense of "I and a player may fight," but rather in the sense of "I may be killed at some time by a player." Due to the super stats-based nature of the game, the vast majority of players cannot remotely defend themselves. One of the fellows who killed me, some weeks later, attacked another fellow that mines for his village. He also does some PvP on the side, or at least is open to it. With five times my strength and ten times my agility, he still was forced to flee and flee only. Self-defense is nonexistent. Whatever elements of nature you are hoping to shine through simply do not shine through. Because of this and despite loving PvP in any other mmo i've played, I despise PvP and hide incessently. Recently I deleted again, realizing that sunk cost fallacy had led me to continue playing. In the end, though, due to the cumulitive, iterative nature of q spiraling, I realized that when I was killed for that small minute of schadenfreude, what was destroyed there was not simply my character, but the potential for impacting 16.1 in any meaningful way. I wanted an orchard, a restaurant, anything at all to create something interested and social within the game. Someone who plays explicitly to reduce sociality came and stopped that, and stopped it so hard that it isn't possible to recover from it regardless of play time logged. After one thousand hours, my q will be lower than the one who was not killed and clocked one thousand and ten hours, and so on forever.

My point is this. The above dude bitching about safepalis is why the game cannot be meaninfully successful. Pandering to sixty antisocial dipshits might not be the move. What is a safepali, anyways? And genuinely, i've always read this game as a sandbox (necessarily including PvP), not as a PvP game (unfortunately including other elements.). Hilariously, every complaint he listed is one based of off "This takes me time to counter." but when the opposite is said (I did not invest the resources I had into PvP minmaxing), it is being a carebear? Locks can be picked. Walls can be sieged. Thickets effect the speed of who is being chased and the chaser. They can also use sleds. Every. Single. Point. is "make it so they stand still for me, dad!"

In the spirit of PvP mmos, and of mean-heartedness, and of honesty, this dude and many of the "PvP" dudes are, and i mean this, carebeared as fuck. They don't fight each other. They whine when a non-PvP oriented player has even the remotest possibility of escape. It's like saying the dogs that they kick ought also to not have legs to run, or teeth with which to bite, or mouths at all to make such loathsome crying sounds. They are asking you to make a dumb fucking game, jorb.

Sincerely, your biggest fan and someone who can't play your game until it is somehow fixed.

P.S. as proof that they don't want more PvP, just easier griefing, let me suggest PvP stat adjusting like in instanced PvP scenarios. And only in PvP, so that you don't have to rework your entire game. Turn stat differences into ratios and let that be reflected as your general capacity in that stat so that skilled spruces can put up a fight. Boom, now everyone can (and will) fight. That's all they want, right? "b-b-b-but i earned that 3000 strength, i should be able to 1 shot them, muh realism." I'm telling you dude, they do not want more PvP.

There are some inaccuracies here, but I find the general thrust of this wall of text to be quite based.

Tl;dr - The entirety of Haven's PvP system is built for the sixty or so people who still regularly participate in Haven's PvP system, and the vast majority of changes they propose tend to ask for it to be more convenient for them to grief other players.

Poster is a doomer mid tier player who wants the entire system changed to allow a wider breadth of players to engage meaningfully in PvP with a chance to actually win. He suggests doing so with some misguided changes and observations that show he's not entirely aware of how PVP works. But his heart is in the right place, and besides his mechanical suggestions, he's basically correct.

[Zentetsuken]

The difficulty here is that a significant portion of PVPers are dishonest and scared of change.

Real PVP (not griefing) exists in a bubble that nobody gives a shit about besides the same small group of players who engage in it for the first month of a world, world after world. It was never and will never be something that even 5% of the active playerbase cares about or would wish to partake in. Combat is one of the least interesting and developed mechanics in the game and the devs are exhausted by the prospect of developing it because the feedback consists of 100% dishonest, aggressive novellas strategically DMd by bad actors who only want to preserve their ability to ego stroke.

PVP is as boring and shitty as described because "real PVP" only exists as this ego stroking excercise between groups of grown men who want to better the other grown men who bettered them in the past.


99% of critique and analysis of the current system by PVPers is only fueled by the desire to preserve the type of gameplay that panders to them, and because of the militant degree of dishonesty coming from the loudest and most prevalent effortposters and known "PVPers" - we have gotten to where we are today. A combat system that is not approachable for the average player not because of the skill involved, but because of the gatekeeping and toxicity of the players who engage in it. Grown men desperately trying to ego stroke and preserve the systems that benefit their autistically rehearsed industry rushes, skipping most of the game content in favor of being able to post a victory picture and have a small circlejerk and argument on Discord after running around, frantically clicking critters and drinking for 2 hours.

And, with all this dishonesty, the people who suffer most are those affected by griefing, the most hollow and debased content in the game, and a sad byproduct of development fueled by dishonest feedback.



PVP should simply be removed from the main world and remain in Valhalla, and the combat system should be redeveloped from the ground up wiht PVE in mind, ignoring any and all feedback from PVPers. With nobody's ego or desperately rehearsed industry rushes to get an upperhand at risk, the game can finally be developed with honest feedback - and PVP can be implemented again only after this.

[DeadlyPencil]

Regarding the Lost Woods sieges. The raiders challenge the thingwall basically 3 times a week. sometimes they do it multiple times per day with different types of metal. When they are serious they do a gold challenge leaving the village only 1 hour to somehow try and defend. There is nothing stopping them from perpetually challenging the thingwall over and over (and they do). They tried to siege the village 2 times with rams but there is nothing stopping them from doing it a 3rd time (already threatened). There is nothing lost for actually losing a siege, the material cost is nothing for them. They dont even really waste time. They have 1 person camp the ram, and the others can port from another continent away to a dummy charter and be there to defend the rams in 1 minute, but it takes 5 minutes to kill a ram. and if you dont bash it all the way, they can repair it back to 100%, no delay in seige at all.

Now whats weird about this situation is lost woods actually didn't do anything. They essentially just want to kill the village for the sake of killing a village. They could try and raid the actual villages that fight with them, for example the people who fought over the meteor, but they choose to try and raid lost woods instead. Then they complain about PVP and no one will fight them? Do you see how messed up this is? They try and raid a Non PVP village, and complain that no one will fight them...

Now when i say they risk nothing, what do i mean by that? Well their characters are likely 700+ STR/AGL/CON and they have 500 armour as seen in their screenshots. Think hard about what is required to KO someone like that. In the lost siege part 2 video, posted on the moot, the guy got trapped for over 20 seconds with 3-4 people attacking him, he goes from 496hp to 359 hp so only 137 damage (has over 700hp). The highest his Red defence reached was about 45. He was never in danger of actually dying. He bashed his way out of a wall, even picked up a log to escape. The only way one of these guys is gonna die is if they literally get trapped PERMANENTLY where they cannot escape, or has 3 similarly stated characters attacking him. As long as he is just attacking characters with 1/2 or 1/3 their stats, which is likely 99% of the haven population, there is no chance they are dying. So they risk nothing because the chance of them actually dying is near zero.


So the defender has their entire village to lose and the attacker risks basically nothing. That is where the game is at right now, very imbalanced.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

The difficulty here is that a significant portion of PVPers are dishonest and scared of change.

Real PVP (not griefing) exists in a bubble that nobody gives a shit about besides the same small group of players who engage in it for the first month of a world, world after world. It was never and will never be something that even 5% of the active playerbase cares about or would wish to partake in. Combat is one of the least interesting and developed mechanics in the game and the devs are exhausted by the prospect of developing it because the feedback consists of 100% dishonest, aggressive novellas strategically DMd by bad actors who only want to preserve their ability to ego stroke.

PVP is as boring and shitty as described because "real PVP" only exists as this ego stroking excercise between groups of grown men who want to better the other grown men who bettered them in the past.


99% of critique and analysis of the current system by PVPers is only fueled by the desire to preserve the type of gameplay that panders to them, and because of the militant degree of dishonesty coming from the loudest and most prevalent effortposters and known "PVPers" - we have gotten to where we are today. A combat system that is not approachable for the average player not because of the skill involved, but because of the gatekeeping and toxicity of the players who engage in it. Grown men desperately trying to ego stroke and preserve the systems that benefit their autistically rehearsed industry rushes, skipping most of the game content in favor of being able to post a victory picture and have a small circlejerk and argument on Discord after running around, frantically clicking critters and drinking for 2 hours.

And, with all this dishonesty, the people who suffer most are those affected by griefing, the most hollow and debased content in the game, and a sad byproduct of development fueled by dishonest feedback.



PVP should simply be removed from the main world and remain in Valhalla, and the combat system should be redeveloped from the ground up wiht PVE in mind, ignoring any and all feedback from PVPers. With nobody's ego or desperately rehearsed industry rushes to get an upperhand at risk, the game can finally be developed with honest feedback - and PVP can be implemented again only after this.

Last paragraph goes a little too far, but otherwise, +1 from me dawg.
May be first and last time I ever agree with u, Minehole goatse guy.

I will say there are some people engaging in pvp later in this world, even now, but otherwise basically on point.

I propose Exanima PvE/PvP added to Haven next lmfao: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKO4WMmje9I

[SnuggleSnail]

World 11 was the worst (13 doesn't count) pvp world ever, then immediately after in world 12 there was daily PVP for 3 months, and dozens of shitter villages that wouldn't be able to participate in modern worlds contributing.

Having healthy, regular PVP is actually really simple. You just need good spawns/good geography/lenient fast travel. That's it. Imagine trying to pitch sailing for 3 hours to maybe get into a fight to somebody who can only play a few hours a week. Of course the only people who fight are the biggest autists on the server????? Nobody else would have time even if they bought their characters.

Jorbtar has completely by accident created good worlds a couple of times, but unfortunately they're just as incapable of learning from success as they are from failure.

[Potjeh]

To have healthy PvP you need healthy PvP incentives. 99% of the time you don't get anything out of winning a fight other than the bragging rights. IMO the game should put more focus on equipment, and move away from top equipment depending on high q anvil and spammable shit like steel and instead make it more dependent on stuff you can't mass produce inside your walls (dungeon loot, whale parts etc.).

Also, at this point, just remove permadeath completely cause competent PvP basically never die. It only serves to punish people that are still learning. Wounds are enough of a punishment, and IMO you should make it so that even if you get the worst possible wounds you should be able to fully heal in like 2 weeks max.

[Regulus2424]

move away from spammable shit

instead make it more dependent on whale parts

I'm pretty sure whale parts are considered spammable for big villages, so that would only make it worse for the rest of the players.