Content deny strategy

[SnuggleSnail]

Ye, half right. Except most of the mechanics that lead to PVP being as bad as it is aren't from an attempt to save the hermits. 90% of it is just jorbtar doing random dumb shit that breaks everything for seemingly no reason then never fixing it

[FaithfulToadd]

The non-PvPers (hermits, casuals, the vast majority of the playerbase) keep making suggestions with the intention of making non-consensual PvP less damaging but the end result trends towards making consensual PvP boring while not curbing griefing gameplay.

That is at least what their detractors claim. Determining what is 'correct' can be hazy, since no one really knows what's going on globally. I'll be the first to admit that every argument here is based on hazy perceptions at best, by players (including myself) who vehemently disagree with one another and have various, conflicting, agendas. We're failing to really get anywhere. Lots of bad faith arguments are at play, as well, which compounds the issue. Looking at you, squad leader.

If the player count were higher all of this would matter more, but given the nature of the game, no one wants to stream it. No one knows what the global situation looks like, and in the fights that are shown (RIP, headphone users) it can be difficult to parse what is actually going on. So it's still difficult to reach a consensus regarding how things should work.


I, for one, am in favor of making non-consensual PvP way easier in general (see: my stance here), on the condition that fighting be more accessible to anyone interested. My preferred system would push things in the direction of, 'Don't wanna fight? Don't play the game.' That's a bit harsh and would drive some players away, but if PvP were actually fair and accessible, the effect on hermits and casuals wouldn't be as horrible as it sounds. In fact, it would be a vast improvement.

The biggest problem is that there is not any kind of balance in PvP between characters with stats in the 1-2K range, and gear quality in the several hundreds versus players who rolled a new toon 2 weeks ago. This appears to be the result of an intrinsic design flaw, and may never truly be solved without some major compromise in the developers' vision of the game. Who can say? Stat caps have been tried as a means to curtail this egregious lack of balance, and apparently failed. If the barrier to entry for PvP were lowered to nothing, or almost nothing, there would be a lot more fights happening. Fights are good. Fights are exciting. Paradoxically, griefing wouldn't be as widespread if such a system also favored defenders of a territory. Anyone with an interest in griefing or raiding you would be much easier for you to thwart than in the current meta; and with relatively low investment on your part.

I'm no gun rights advocate, but to borrow an oft-quoted phrase here in the South: an armed society is a polite society. I genuinely think these changes would breathe life back into the game, and still leave lots of room for those players who imagine themselves 'non-participants' in combat.


By the way, one side-effect of these changes would be that players joining even very late into a wipe could, with effort, quickly become relevant to PvP and geopolitics, which is something that we have never seen before, and, IIRC, was one of the original goals with introducing stat caps. This might allow worlds to last significantly longer (think: 2-3 years instead of just 1) without requiring an annual reset. Devs, please consider.

[wolf1000wolf]

The thing about the whole "stats matter too much" suggestions seem to forget is that the average non-consensual PvP encounter is rarely a 1v1.

There's a reason its called a gank. The deadly encounters for the random hermit out foraging isn't one single guy with 5 times their stats. Its 3 guys with twice their stats each that are coordinating.

I do agree with the sentiment that HnH's whole risk vs reward balance is off though. The loser of a gank generally loses much more than whatever the aggressor spent in the effort.

Unfortunately, think that's a fundamental "problem" with a permadeath game with PvP.

(Not even getting into siege and base razing)

[FaithfulToadd]

The thing about the whole "stats matter too much" suggestions seem to forget is that the average non-consensual PvP encounter is rarely a 1v1.

There's a reason its called a gank. The deadly encounters for the random hermit out foraging isn't one single guy with 5 times their stats. Its 3 guys with twice their stats each that are coordinating.

Consider stats being entirely removed as a factor, though. A 3v1 matchup should play in favor of the larger group, but on the basis of skill, not stats. And, if the hermit is more skilled than their pursuers, they should have a good chance of outwitting them.
Whereas a 1v1 should be much more even; and yet they are not.

I do agree with the sentiment that HnH's whole risk vs reward balance is off though.

I contend that the issue is not primarily one of risk vs reward, although that may be a salient point. The issue is primarily the barrier to entry being too high, in which stat differences play a significant part.

[TheLaFreakki]

Just here to say; Please do not listen to anyone who has exploited a q1000 pneck. If you for one second think they genuinely care about making the game better for anyone aside from themselves, you're chasing the dragon irl lol

[Dudesoe]

Haven and hearth in my opinion has always been about communities uniting and competing against eachother, whether it be factions or neighbours or whatever the fuck. I enjoy talking to people, socializing and doing things together. But honestly no one gives a fuck about eachother, everyones afraid. I think there should be some sort of incentive to foster players within realms and make realms pvp and compete with eachother. Make this the main source of pvp, getting ganked sucks and shitting on noobs isnt healthy for the game either. I find that the problem is that everyone finds all sorts of enjoyment from this game but we need to find solutions that generally appeal to all. We need more contested resources to fight over and a way for even hermits to participate. Shit even a leaderboard within realms and out of realms would give some players a reason to give a shit.

I think attracting isolated players and giving them a reason to do things as part of realm would be cool too, maybe small pvp events or small pve events where even noobs can contribute whether it be building some sort of monuments to contribute to realm or pushing borders slowly, what if individual hermits could be given a way to expand realms by submitting to the realm and their claim (albeit still belongs to them and the rights) becomes apart of the borders. I understand this would require a huge rework of systems but fuck I dont know to me this sounds cool if it could exist. The pvp and pve events could contribute to the realm somehow maybe work towards realm blessings in a way with isolated events ,whether they be social, hunting, or gathering. There is a huge issue with botting with this and im not sure how we could work around it but atleast make it so that it requires some decent stat investments so it would be a heavier expense to spam alts this way and hermits could feel useful. Or propping up new players and helping them out instead of hunting them for sport. Thingwall discounts within the realms make a lot of sense and should be implemented and fixing everyones complaints about thingwalls.

Im sort of a noob and only recently started playing again but this is just how i feel from reading this huge thread. im probably wrong about things but i just wanted to say something since this thread was turning into a giant shitfest. I just want players to be incentivized to help foster the community, the population is only getting smaller. I want to see players unite in huge factions and fight eachother and slaughter in huge wars and small skirmishes, not griefing hermits and noobs. I think the stats are fine its just the way people are using them since they have nothing else to do. No shit people are bullying noobs and hermits for fun they provide no value. We just need to make people valuable again. Just my two cents call me a retard if u want i just dont want to see this game die

[MightySheep]

why is this thread still going the original message was some meaningless shit

I agree that itd be healthy to have any incentive to not immediately destroy every noob in a 5 mile radius

With pclaim cave block change there is no way to be safe at the start and we wiped out everything that move in our area and then later on its kinda boring because our area is so dead

It should be mainly griefers who kill everybody and drive them out the area but its any competitive player because why compete for resources theres no reason to let people live

[r0ck4ev3r]

This thread is all over the place but has some good points that in themself should be its own topic. Tldr for the wall of text criers: If you care about the game sub gold and opine, lets try and find one thing to focus on and fix it.

aside, I'll add my signposting to the wall.

Travel: Not sure of this continent locked thingwall travel is the play, feels bad to have to travel an hour by boat, and then keep an alt villa juiced just to charter over. I do however agree that the distance function of Travel Weariness should be a high cost. (maybe even higher if tiles traveled over are ocean)

Death vs KO: Death is part of the game and you should be knocked out if you goof whether inability to drink or walked to close to that bear. Death itself in current state of the game pve seems good here- spruce gets ganked by a pack of wolves, oops. (Cheesing PVE ai could be a whole other sub thread) As for the pvp side, if geared you normally don't die if knocked by a player, this also is where the stat/gear gap can become a problem with death (even if we added a toggle for non lethal, the stacking wounds will delete underdeveloped player)

Death vs Murder: This is where I personal think that murdering someone (not oops they got cleaved for three times there hp, or for some reason had +con on gear and died while getting looted) should be another step that if you are 0 add a bleeding out phase (some time function of con) you don't get the check boxes to stay log or hearth, but body can be dragged out of a fight and patched up to stop the timer, or executed (and action requiring murder that takes some time)

Realms need some TLC: and maybe even something in-between realm and villa. Randomly tracking when TW is next to expand and then winning the I have more dudes awake now is not it.

PVP in the world: More/Better reasons for PvP, rare chance of a 1v1 at local resource or some dudes on my wagon; look a meteorite, Cachalot can kind of be some naval warfare- but are lure'd and cheesed so thats a pipedream.

PVP(at villas) & Safe palli: There needs to be reasons to leave the base. As well as ways for spruce caps to escape combat into there base; removing gate function is not the play- will just mean locked doors with mine holes, or now we have built a labyrinth of walls with no gates,.. Would love to see you get a slight speed buff in your village, but even that leads to an already existing issue of siege is also all over the place each world. (siege should be its own thread, but again other topics should be fixed before gates)

Movement: Thickets, Sleds, Bunny slippers, speed buffs; pick something and normalize it. Any change to movement on foot or vehicles cascades into some pvp advantage really quick so this is a touchy topic.

and so much more...

[SnuggleSnail]

> 100 obvious problems with obvious, low effort solutions
> 1000 threads pointing out both the problems, and the easy solution
> many of the problems have persisted 2, 5, 10+ years
> dev asks in the 1001st thread "yo, what are the problems?"
> people somehow manage to write the same essay for the 1001th time

The average patch make the game worse, and any improvements are purely accidental

[FaithfulToadd]

>The average patch make the game worse, and any improvements are purely accidental

Why play game if you don't like game? /genuine