Handbashable walls

[Avu]

Remember those things from world 2 and part of world 3?

How did everything work? Someone decided to go on a rampage to kill some noobs break inside their palisade and steal some shit. Ranger type players would go and search for the scents find the culprit most often than not it was some solo shit they'd break his puny palisade in return kill him and then the ranger would go place his hf in a vault. There would be a risk however someone would come and kill the ranger and that was understood and accepted. Once people finished chain killing each other and the dust settled and the einherjars expended there would be quiet for a while.

There was no safety behind walls only logged out safety so crafter alts had not much point most people had their main do crafting at least it had a chance defending itself. Unorganized shits would die once and wouldn't even have a chance to go after the ranger so when faced with months of rebuilding they either turned legit or quit win win. Organized groups would think several times before committing serious crimes because any char doing that was pretty much marked for death if the other sides wanted it enough. People wouldn't go after their enemies infrastructure for some reason though I guess it was an era of gentlemen, later though total war became more and more prevalent and I have myself to blame in part for it since I was a big advocate.

The introduction of invulnerable walls rams and the like meant combat alts become essential. The only meaningful pvp ever happened outside of towns and usually in groups. Activities related to alts like botting become much more prevalent. After all you have to feed your alt army. Groups become more and more likely to accept and "protect" shit talking shits who would have been a great security risk with the previous system but now they could be easily tolerated. In time normies quit because normies ain't got time for dealing with idiots and only the shitheads remained basking in the lack of need of normal social interactions.

Now we decry lack of pvp that nobody leaves their walls well of course nobody does it's a vicious circle.

P.S. I'm not saying going back to that just pointing out how one change lead to this....

[Zentetsuken]

I remember.

[Sevenless]

It only punished the disorganized/beginners. Everyone else just bricked beyond view distance to achieve safety. Good old sniper walls. I'd also argue that alts have become more prevalent due to increasing quality and availability of botting clients more than anything.

Sadly though, my personal boogiemen for what causes high alt use, bottability and low amounts of conflict are frankly not addressable. Having mucked around in as many games as I can of this genre, I'm 99% certain that alt use and low conflict are directly tied to permadeath. While permadeath makes combat intense, it's not without its downfalls. Botability is rampant in part due to it being a grindy mmo, and in part due to with little policing (I remember they policed a case of XP bots for kingdom authority). Addressing the first part is impossible while keeping haven intact, and the second part is a very difficult pickle as the devs have addressed. More policing would be very expensive on their limited manpower (plz no player admins, not for a community like haven), and would not eliminate botting entirely. Meaning some people would still get away with it and skew the powerbalance, while most of the population would do fairly ok without it.

I don't see how we can fix these issues without compromising something pretty important to a large chunk of the haven community.

[Avu]

I'm talking about a time when brickwalls ware handbashable too. Quite easily in world 2. But I agree with the rest of your points.

[Sevenless]

I'm talking about a time when brickwalls ware handbashable too. Quite easily in world 2. But I agree with the rest of your points.

Ah, my bad. They were handbashable, but only with extreme difficulty in my earliest memories. I wasn't aware brick was ever easy to punch through.

[spawningmink]

you guys clearly didnt ready the game files lmfao bwalls are bashable with 6k str at that moment takes 2 hours

[VDZ]

I have a more likely hypothesis: People joined and time passed. With more people come more assholes and more 'innovation' in the way of gaining unintended advantages and screwing others over in ways not originally intended. More people also means bigger groups, and bigger groups means less sense of personal responsibility and an increased chance of an atmosphere that tolerates or encourages being an asshole. As time passed, these processes yielded results, and more people got bored playing 'normally' and looked for other ways to play, further accelerating this change.

Did w2 and w3 have huge factions raising their item qualities to obscene levels and raising their characters to levels completely unnecessary for non-PvP purposes? Did w2 and w3 have large groups of people constantly shitposting on the forums over in-game rivalries due to belonging to different factions?

Nobody's gonna play a ranger nowadays. There's nothing to gain from it, and as the 'assholes' are organized and strong it's extremely dangerous. This is not the fault of in-game ways to protect yourself or other game mechanics; it's just the community changing over time.

[Kaios]

I have a more likely hypothesis: People joined and time passed. With more people come more assholes

People joined yes but people also left and it appears to me the players who enjoyed doing the friendly ranger stuff stopped playing and still have yet to return to the game. Meanwhile, those types of players never ended up being replaced by others who enjoyed doing the same or similar. Some of the older players have explained their reasons why they haven't returned and others have simply grown tired of holding out hope that the game is going to improve again one day so they just don't bother at all.

Nobody's gonna play a ranger nowadays. There's nothing to gain from it, and as the 'assholes' are organized and strong it's extremely dangerous. This is not the fault of in-game ways to protect yourself or other game mechanics; it's just the community changing over time.

I have to disagree at least partly, or do you truly feel that the current state of the game isn't more favourable towards "bad guys" than it is to "good guys" and in my opinion the blame for that would fall solely upon the mechanics. But the community has certainly changed since back then, I won't argue with that.

[Potjeh]

Sevenless, do you think it'd be better if the game had no-permadeath zones? Shameless self-promotion

[joojoo1975]

I guess what I am scratching my head at is everybody talking about permadeath

the main prob right now is there are too many ways to bypass permadeath. so since players who know how to bypass permadeath do, it fucks over all ther others that don't/won't which in turn fucks over everybody eventually as you have currently a shit pool of a game.

look at the posts.

you either have "no pvp" as people stay inside their wills and only venture out with combat/forage/spy alts

when you do have pvp its gank settings or exploit settings or what ever the fuck the botting factions wanna shit call it.

the problem is not with permadeath. if it was equal for all, then you would prolly have what Avu is alluding to(I think, to a point)



bottom line, until Bots/permadeath bypass can really be dealt with, there will be no peace. and no peace means no meaningful game play to a point.