Fresh Harvest of Random

[Ysh]

Hello to you all again my great friends,

It have been some time since I have come here to do some postings. Having checked into current state of affairs, I see this forum is in some rough shape. It is like ghost town to me. Even more is game world. I log in to have a bit of a check, and I see it is also ghost town of previous lands I stay in. The world continues? It is sure a shock.

So I have decide to make this thread to try and reignite some passions and launch this forum to some new heights. I think they call this one foreshadowing.

I am spending some of my times thinking and talking about this game Haven and Hearth as I am away, as I am wont to do, and in conversation with friend we are both struck with a brain wave. How can we make this great game even greater? How it can be made even greater just in time for some fresh world that I am sure will come eventually? This answer is the idea of fresh random. Just as fresh pineapple is full of so much sweetness that is lost inside can, I believe this fresh random will provide much more sweetness than canned random.

I am sure many of you are aware of this website located at www.random.org. If you are not familiar, this is website that will give you random number, as name will suggest! These are not just any old random number, though. As they describe in website:

In reality, most random numbers used in computer programs are pseudo-random, which means they are generated in a predictable fashion using a mathematical formula. This is fine for many purposes, but it may not be random in the way you expect if you're used to dice rolls and lottery drawings.

RANDOM.ORG offers true random numbers to anyone on the Internet. The randomness comes from atmospheric noise, which for many purposes is better than the pseudo-random number algorithms typically used in computer programs.

From further reading we can see that these random is captured out of the air using radio device.

RANDOM.ORG uses radio receivers to pick up atmospheric noise, which is then used to generate random numbers. The radios are tuned between stations. A possible attack on the generator is therefore to broadcast on the frequencies that the RANDOM.ORG radios use in order to affect the generator. However, radio frequency attacks of this type would be difficult for a variety of reasons. First, the frequencies that the radios use are not published, so an attacker would have to broadcast across all frequencies of all bands used for FM and AM broadcasting. Second, this is not an attack that can be launched from anywhere in the world, only reasonably close to the generator. RANDOM.ORG currently has radio receivers in several different countries, which would make it difficult to coordinate this type of attack. Third, if an attacker actually did succeed at broadcasting highly regular signals (e.g., perfect sine waves) at exactly the right frequencies from the right locations, then the RANDOM.ORG real-time statistics would pick up the drop in quality very rapidly. In particular, the Source Purity and Information Entropy tests would start failing dramatically, which would raise an alert.

This is fine, sure, but it will be remiss for the men here to be satisfied with other man to harvest his random. So a man will pick for me this pineapple and tell me that it is fresh, but how can I be so sure? I do not watch him pick this berry from the pineapple bush. Maybe he have kept this whole pineapple in a locker for years before giving this one to me. The way for the truest, freshest, sweetest fruits is to take this pilgrimage to the source and pick it your own self. This is what I suggest we will do for this next world.

Atmospheric noise is produced up in atmosphere, as clear from its calling. This atmosphere is a thing around Earth, forming a barrier between the space inside Earth which we all call Earth space and the space outside Earth which is well known to be space space. So to collect this bounty of noise, we must construct and launch noise grabbing satellite. According to some sources of mine, it is possible for a man to launch some small satellite into space for some quite cheap price as far as space launch goes. A 10cm x 10cm x 10cm cube can be launched into space for around $50,000USD - $90,000USD assuming Rocket Lab USA demonstrates typical pricing. Inside of this cube we will pack some netting that can be deployed when it has reached atmosphere. With these nets we will collect the noise and then operate it to produce maximally fresh random number.

At the time of this posting there are 195,923 registered Haven and Hearth forum user. At worst case pricing of $90,000USD, this is mere $0.46USD per user. A very small price to pay for very fresh world with very fresh number if you ask me. Of course I am curious, what you all do think about this? Is this fee too high for very fresh number? How do you think world generated with fresh number will look compared to stale number worlds we have seen so far? I am looking very much forward to what you all will have to say about it. Thanks, as always, to you for consideration.

[Zentetsuken]

Satellite launches are extremely well documented, public and highly calculated. The satellite will be publicly mapped in its orbit.

Knowing this, me and my 200, 000 friends are going to raise 0.50 cents each to launch a satellite up in to space right next to yours with a speaker inside of it. The speaker will release a completely calculated set of tones that I will be able to program from my home computer.

I will use these tones to calculate haven to be perfectly unrandom to suit my playing needs.

[Ysh]

Satellite launches are extremely well documented, public and highly calculated. The satellite will be publicly mapped in its orbit.

Knowing this, me and my 200, 000 friends are going to raise 0.50 cents each to launch a satellite up in to space right next to yours with a speaker inside of it. The speaker will release a completely calculated set of tones that I will be able to program from my home computer.

I will use these tones to calculate haven to be perfectly unrandom to suit my playing needs.

You are free to do this, but I must warn that to deploy a speaker as this will have no effect except to give the Haven satellite some fun time tunes to enjoy while scooping up the random. Since this satellite is directly at source of atmospheric noise, it do not need to rely on radio equipment as a peasant would. As mentioned in posting, it will instead be collecting the noise in nets to harvest random number directly.

If you are still so eager to deploy counter satellite to rig game, I think you must deploy a satellite packed with hockey stick. Using hockey stick you can knock unfavorable noise away from nets, allowing only favorable noise to become collected. Alternatively, using careful blows to noise it is maybe possible to alter numbers inside of it directly. This seem to me as it will be a very arcane and difficult process for you.

Furthermore, hockey stick is much larger and heavy than net, so pricing will be far greater for your organization of friend. Instead of $0.46USD it may be as high as several full United States America dollars per person. I think this one is cost prohibitive.

[Zentetsuken]

how can you ensure that your netting is made fairly, maybe some number noises will go through the holes in the net or maybe some are so large they will escape it

this would mean it is not a true random number but rather a random number within a certain scale and this seems substantially less fun

ALSO I could deploy a satellite with same netting but in different sizes of holes and simply have my satellite stand farther out in the orbit distance that yours and put out a netting with my desired hole size so that only the particular noises that fit through the holes will make it to your net therefore completely unrandomizing your harvest, AND it would cost the same, and I think people are more likely to pay for this even higher amounts because I can change the netting to suit the needs of those who funded accordingly

[Ysh]

how can you ensure that your netting is made fairly, maybe some number noises will go through the holes in the net or maybe some are so large they will escape it

this would mean it is not a true random number but rather a random number within a certain scale and this seems substantially less fun

ALSO I could deploy a satellite with same netting but in different sizes of holes and simply have my satellite stand farther out in the orbit distance that yours and put out a netting with my desired hole size so that only the particular noises that fit through the holes will make it to your net therefore completely unrandomizing your harvest, AND it would cost the same, and I think people are more likely to pay for this even higher amounts because I can change the netting to suit the needs of those who funded accordingly

Interesting idea. I am not sure that this one is relevant though. Even if noise cluster with bigger number is bigger cluster, I think to filter this out is still leaving random data. For example, imagine I will take a 20 sided die and roll this one. Each time I roll I will record this result and write it on ticker tape. You are fed this tape and can read the values. What you will see is numbers 1-20 come through on this tape in a random order. If you pay attention for a long period of time, all of these number will appear around the same number of times, 5% for each number, but it may take a very high amount of time for seeing this ideal result. Regardless, if some other man were to ask you which number will come through next on the tape, it do not matter how long you have stared at the tape until now. You will not be able to predict the next number.

Next imagine this same scenario, but this time there is some fiendish man sitting between you and I. He looks upon this tape before you can see it, cuts out of the tape every number above 10, then mends the remaining tape. From your perspective now you will see numbers 1-10 come through this tape in a random order. If you pay attention for a long period of time, all of these number will appear around the same number of times, 10% for each number, but it may take a very high amount of time for seeing this ideal result. Regardless, if some other man were to ask you which number will come through next on the tape, it do not matter how long you have stared at the tape until now. You will not be able to predict the next number.

This die rolling ticker tape reading thinking experimentation can provide benefit for imagining your net filter. Even if you filter out all numbers above a certain sizing threshold, what the Haven satellite receives is still truly random number. Fit for use in fun and fresh fair new world.

[Zentetsuken]

okay new plan

so i send up a satellite but this one doesnt have any nets or any tone emissions it only has computer interface arm just like rd2d has




I think this is not expensive its like maybe some cables mixed with dentist tools for drilling and a camera for looking

now with this very cheap satellite with small computer interface arm and built in tools i can link up with your satellite, my robot arm will drill tiny holes in the surface shielding of your satellite and inject small cables and tools in to the hole, i think this is like a doctor doing surgery with a robot only it does not have to be so intricate or careful because i am just drilling a hole in some metal

so once i have breached your noise harvester i can tap in to your wire controls with simple device like this



from here I can do any number of things, such as upgrade my satellite with better data transmission technology and therefore have the random data available to me before it is implemented to its duty therefore making it 100% predictable

I can filter and reorganize your data, corrupt it and change it, therefore making it 100% predictable

I can input coding and data to manipulate the data you harvest and only send back what I want, or even implement some form of intelligent preference to your computing therefore making it 100% predictable

i think this satellite idea for obtaining random numbers is also flawed because any machine will eventually wear down and when this happens i think it will eventually behave in a way that can exhibit predictable patterns, so even if the data itself is random the machine that processes, sends or retrieves it will eventually make the data predictable

[Ysh]

i think this satellite idea for obtaining random numbers is also flawed because any machine will eventually wear down and when this happens i think it will eventually behave in a way that can exhibit predictable patterns, so even if the data itself is random the machine that processes, sends or retrieves it will eventually make the data predictable

Eventually it will break down, yes. This is why I propose not to use this fresh data every time, only for world generation. The machine will hopefully last long enough to collect enough data for this world generator.

okay new plan

so i send up a satellite but this one doesnt have any nets or any tone emissions it only has computer interface arm just like rd2d has




I think this is not expensive its like maybe some cables mixed with dentist tools for drilling and a camera for looking

now with this very cheap satellite with small computer interface arm and built in tools i can link up with your satellite, my robot arm will drill tiny holes in the surface shielding of your satellite and inject small cables and tools in to the hole, i think this is like a doctor doing surgery with a robot only it does not have to be so intricate or careful because i am just drilling a hole in some metal

so once i have breached your noise harvester i can tap in to your wire controls with simple device like this



from here I can do any number of things, such as upgrade my satellite with better data transmission technology and therefore have the random data available to me before it is implemented to its duty therefore making it 100% predictable

I can filter and reorganize your data, corrupt it and change it, therefore making it 100% predictable

I can input coding and data to manipulate the data you harvest and only send back what I want, or even implement some form of intelligent preference to your computing therefore making it 100% predictable

Surely this will be rather big problem for the satellite. If you will have physical access to internals of device then you can compromise it in any way you will like. I think this deck still stacks itself to favor the Haven satellite though.

Even if you can obtain the orbit information of these satellites, how quickly can you do it? You are able to monitor contents of every satellite launch on the planet? What if this Haven satellite is launched under false name or pretenses? How will you deduce which satellite to target?

When you identify it, will you be able to launch counter satellite in time to disrupt Haven satellite before it completes the mission and sends back enough data? Will you be able to even launch this counter satellite to proper position to get into this short distance range if you do know where it is? Even if you grab this properly somehow, are you confident you can reverse engineer and hack this satellite without destroying it using only some hook on a stick? Keep in mind, design of satellite will likely be done by loftar and he have a reputation for producing some obscure products.

Once you deploy robot arms, these arms must go beyond surface shielding of your own satellite and you claim they will penetrate surface shielding of Haven satellite. We both know purpose of this shielding is to defend from space terrors. How you will fight off these space terrors with feeble robot arm? Can you defeat terrors and reprogram satellite simultaneously?

Finally, all of these will be very detectable I think. Even if you do somehow manage to complete all of this task with success and without destroying Haven satellite, I am not sure it is possible to do this without jorb and loftar to figure it out. Once they know data is compromised, they surely will not use it and instead go back to off-the-shelf canned random. Now your stakeholders have spend a lot of money on this manipulated data, and this data will not be used anyway! I think this may be big problem for you if they can find where you are unless you will pay them back with dollars from your own pockets.

[Zentetsuken]

I think most information about orbiting things is obtained with a simple google search. One example is sites like this http://stuffin.space/

If information is this accessible I think you can make inquiries about very specific things with ease.

I think my anti random harvesting satellite can be timed to launch at a time where it will be close to random harvesting satellites very easily because all launches have to be timed specifically to avoid debris in space anyways.

I think the point is to prove that this cannot be truly random because this mostly does not exist. The very fact that it CAN be tampered with means this is not acceptable idea for achieving random.

Also a robot arm with drills is definitely better to defend against space terrors than a net and if you plan to launch a satellite in to space you should consider adding to the cost a robot arm for defending against space terrors and counter satellites. Perhaps once a satellite is outfitted with enough arms it can be defended from enough interruptions to actually achieve true randomness.

[MagicManICT]

Also a robot arm with drills is definitely better to defend against space terrors than a net

Fun fact: The first spy satellites jettisoned actual film cartridges that were caught by aircraft with nets. So it is a practical means of knocking something out of orbit as long as you know precisely where said object is going to be.

As far as this thread goes, and interesting a read as it was, isn't it no more than this: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=57497 ?

[Ysh]

As far as this thread goes, and interesting a read as it was, isn't it no more than this: https://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/vi ... 40&t=57497 ?

Intent of this topic is to talk about possible benefit of very fresh random number as pertaining to world generation. Of course, world generation will mostly only happen at time of new world, so it is related to topic of reset, but this is not reset topic. I do not know when reset will happen and I do not particularly care when it will happen, but we all know eventually it will happen. I do not believe this is final Haven world. I believe that this topic of world generator is distinct from topic of beg for reset.