The game I used to play. Oldfags, fill me in!

[Ysh]

maybe it's always been like this but I don't think so considering I've never seen the moot subforum so deserted before hafen.

maybe the current population just sucks, maybe larpers actually provided more interesting content than useless cs:gottagofast gamers

You are member of current population Kaios. Take reigns of own destiny.

[Kaios]

There was a time when the aspirations of the population were mostly similar

[Ysh]

There was a time when the aspirations of the population were mostly similar

Hmm, maybe I am miss your point here. I read through these thread and this does not look much different than thread I can see here recent.

[Kaios]

I should have directed you to this post specifically but that whole thread is essentially a discussion about criminal actions, how players feel about them and how they feel about the extent of damage that can be done to a person during a raid. Some players agree it is excessive but that this is part of the game, others point out that regardless of stealing a carrot or a gold bar the punishment is the same so you might as well take it all the way but all of them acknowledge that the developers need to do something about that because it's a poor situation for both raider and victim.

So I'm just wondering what happened to all those players who actually felt the state of the game needed to be improved upon beyond just a better system for combat, many of the core issues related to combat, raiding and criminal acts that troubled players back then still plague them today (such as all or nothing re scents) and it's no surprise to me that so many of those older players have simply never returned to the game.

[Ysh]

So I'm just wondering what happened to all those players who actually felt the state of the game needed to be improved upon beyond just a better system for combat, many of the core issues related to combat, raiding and criminal acts that troubled players back then still plague them today (such as all or nothing re scents) and it's no surprise to me that so many of those older players have simply never returned to the game.

I think there are multiple factor for this one. When thing is new, people are willing to overlooked flaw. When thing is rare, people are willing too to overlooked flaw. At this time back there, Haven is new and rare (and I think it still is rare today). There is no other game that does what Haven does try to do ''right.'' There are other game that try, just as Haven try, but no game does it ''right'' yet. Certain other genre, they will have definitive game. Example: Starcraft II for competitive RTS, CS:GO for competitive FPS, Dota/LoL for ASSFAGGOTS, MTG for TCG, and so on. Of this, I play MTG and Dota to some extent. If new TCG or ASSFAGGOTS is release, I think it is just a waste. I do not care or even look at it. I am already happy enough with game I play now, I have no desire for movement. These game I think are almost in ''unassailable position'' and will need to begin mismanage themselves for long time before player will actively want to find other game. Because these game do what they are try to do ''right.''

I think it is no controversy to say that Haven does not do this one ''right'' at this moment, and definite not at time of this posting you refer to. But no other game in genre does it either. It is like many survival game FPS you see on steam e.g Rust or that dinosaur games. These game are dime for dozen and seem to be release every few month. But it seems to be in my opinion none of these have massive following to be definitive implementation of game. But Haven is different than this surviving FPS because I think Haven is one of only games that tries to do what this Haven does when Haven is release. What other games is surviving MMO? Maybe Wurm I see people talking about, but I think I play this game and it is very bad to me. If there exists some other it is very obscure or very bad I think. So for the men who want this surviving MMO, which I think has to be many of the men that have try to play this game over years, so it is decent amount of men who want it. For these men, they hunger for this kind of game. They build up this hunger to starving as there is no games around to sate their lust. Not even games they can pretend are fun to try and fix these hungers.

And that is reason for these people you refer to no longer playing. Haven does thing well enough that you may pretend it is fun for some time. It has much potential. This is reason you see the men cry for world reset so often. This early world where everything is new and fresh. You have experience of striking the virgin forest and building of industry homes. It feels you are progress and you feel like you are playing game that does these things ''right.'' Then these men are thinking ''it is cool how we can do all these thing like grow crop and bake and make clothing and care for animal, very many systems in game that work together in this cohesion'' and it is natural to think of ''all the other cool stuff'' it could be doing. Cool stuff like player create thief guild or only steal a little or only vengeance a little or do other neat roleplay system like this one. But this is just ''cool stuff that could happen'' not ''cool stuff that does happen'' or ''cool stuff that will happen.''

These early player were hungry for this type of experience. They want to roleplay their story in this survival world. The game mechanics of early world are very good at craft this experience. If player is playing the game ''well'' and doing things to progress in strength efficiently and such thing, they are naturally going to play in a way that create this experience. The game mechanics support what player will want to do naturally. This is very important thing for game to have. You want to reward these player for doing thing that player wants to do. The problem is that this is falling apart after some time. Eventual, the game mechanics do not line up with creating this experience. In some case, they merely do not aid the experience. In other case, they actively go against this experience.

You can see some example of this in your thread linked. They talk about how they want some experience like in the real live. Man steals just enough to get by, and the person robbed maybe overlooks it. But game mechanics do not suit this outcome. Game mechanics are such that punishment for steal any item is same as punishment for steal all item. It is possible to play this way in spite of these mechanic. But this can only work if all player agree to this new rule. You are create some ''subgame'' inside of the game. If player does not follow rule of subgame, then game is falling apart. When community is small, and most player are drawn to community because they are hungry for this surviving experience, it is much easy to get many player on board with rules of subgame. But when community is large and more diverse, there is only one game rules you know player is playing by: the actual game mechanics rules.

Because of this, it is natural that player who want to play game for experience that does not line up with game mechanic will leave and player who like experience given by game mechanic will stay. I think for some of the people who leave, they will never find game to be happy. I think maybe they do not want a game at all, but they are looking for some roleplay simulation. These players maybe are better off with try to play some pen and paper RPG like the Dungeons and Dragons for getting this kind of experience. But hopeful I am wrong in this case and they will find a game to like eventually. Or a game for them to like is made eventually.

So yes, I think these are reason for these early players to be not playing so much. And I think for this game now, players who are left are thinking very mechanically. They look for a game from this game and not some experience. People who look for this experience as I am assume you will can become jaded and think these player are maybe cynical? I do not know word for using. But I am sure you know type of player I refer to. There are two main type of player I think: player who will call some strategy ''cheap,'' and player who is thinking ''whatever is legal is fair.'' These former group of player are early player looking for experience, and this latter group is what remains who looks for game mechanics. I think as a game right now, Haven biggest flaw is lack of combat mechanics. I have say before that I think endgame for this game must have some player conflicts as core activity, and I think this lacking is why Haven does not have staying powers in the late worlds.

So the reason for these player to ''only care about combat'' is not because they are ''useless cs:gottagofast gamers'' but because they look at game on very mechanical ''gamey'' level. And there is no thing wrong with this one. Different player plays game for different reason. Different man found fun in different thing. I think to disparage this other group with name like this is not desire and not useful. I think you should be look for compromise and come up with mechanic for game that can make for fun game and provide this experience you look for from it. Splitting population to two camp and polarizing all issue is just degenerate into political shitshow and not being useful to any men or useful for this game.

[Kaios]

I think there are multiple factor for this one. When thing is new, people are willing to overlooked flaw. When thing is rare, people are willing too to overlooked flaw. At this time back there, Haven is new and rare (and I think it still is rare today).'

It's still a fresh game for many players, yes many of the old ones are gone but there are also plenty of new faces around yet the state of the game has drastically changed from then to now. And anyways, global politics being another aspect of the game that doesn't really take place at all either is just as disappointing and you are likely going to be past your new player stage when you participate in such things, if you want to participate at all that is.

And that is reason for these people you refer to no longer playing. Haven does thing well enough that you may pretend it is fun for some time. It has much potential. This is reason you see the men cry for world reset so often.

I think the reasons can be a little more varied and complicated than that but certainly I agree there are many aspects of the game that are lacking. The game is still fun for me because I make my own fun out of things that go beyond the PvP aspect of this game. Not to say I don't attempt participation in it but I also feel that there is more to PvP than simply a combat system in which deadly blows can be swapped on a player to player scale, there is room for so much more than that.

These early player were hungry for this type of experience. They want to roleplay their story in this survival world. The game mechanics of early world are very good at craft this experience. If player is playing the game ''well'' and doing things to progress in strength efficiently and such thing, they are naturally going to play in a way that create this experience. The game mechanics support what player will want to do naturally. This is very important thing for game to have. You want to reward these player for doing thing that player wants to do. The problem is that this is falling apart after some time. Eventual, the game mechanics do not line up with creating this experience. In some case, they merely do not aid the experience. In other case, they actively go against this experience.

I agree completely with that other than the fact that only early players were interested in such experience or that there isn't anyone interested in them now. Just because the bulk of players we have now post boring, uninspired and most often truly pathetic raids against players of a lesser caliber doesn't mean there isn't anyone left who would be willing to put the amount of effort in to a story as was done back then, but rather in my opinion I think the mechanics have been dictated so much lately by those other players that this leaves very little interest to the casual.

You can see some example of this in your thread linked. They talk about how they want some experience like in the real live. Man steals just enough to get by, and the person robbed maybe overlooks it. But game mechanics do not suit this outcome. Game mechanics are such that punishment for steal any item is same as punishment for steal all item.

Yeah and I do understand that perspective, it's more than reasonable to expect that all players should have input on mechanical changes and not just those with specific interests in certain areas of the game and I can accept that.

Because of this, it is natural that player who want to play game for experience that does not line up with game mechanic will leave and player who like experience given by game mechanic will stay. I think for some of the people who leave, they will never find game to be happy. I think maybe they do not want a game at all, but they are looking for some roleplay simulation. These players maybe are better off with try to play some pen and paper RPG like the Dungeons and Dragons for getting this kind of experience. But hopeful I am wrong in this case and they will find a game to like eventually. Or a game for them to like is made eventually.

This is dumb though, the game once appealed to them and now it doesn't and to speculate the reasons why is exactly that, speculation. There is a difference between wanting to roleplay and enjoying the political aspects of the game that used to exist and now no longer do.

There are two main type of player I think: player who will call some strategy ''cheap,'' and player who is thinking ''whatever is legal is fair.'' These former group of player are early player looking for experience, and this latter group is what remains who looks for game mechanics. I think as a game right now, Haven biggest flaw is lack of combat mechanics. I have say before that I think endgame for this game must have some player conflicts as core activity, and I think this lacking is why Haven does not have staying powers in the late worlds.

I don't blame any player for wanting the game to appeal more to their play style, I only blame the developers for giving in to those players without considering that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

So the reason for these player to ''only care about combat'' is not because they are ''useless cs:gottagofast gamers'' but because they look at game on very mechanical ''gamey'' level. And there is no thing wrong with this one. Different player plays game for different reason. Different man found fun in different thing. I think to disparage this other group with name like this is not desire and not useful. I think you should be look for compromise and come up with mechanic for game that can make for fun game and provide this experience you look for from it. Splitting population to two camp and polarizing all issue is just degenerate into political shitshow and not being useful to any men or useful for this game.

I haven't done any sort of splitting of the population, this is something that has progressed for a very long time now. See this thread for example is a player misinterpreting my comments and the comments of others to be in favour of a game that is completely safe for new players and no killing ever happens and blah blah but that is most definitely not the kind of game I am looking for.

[Jacobian123]

Holy wall of text, Batman.

EDIT: Maybe I should actually add some input to this topic, instead of just raising my post count for no reason >_>

I do remember the old haven congress. It was pretty larpy, but I enjoyed that fact about it. All this weird "lol xd randem" crap has really taken some of the enjoyment out of this game for me. The fact that there's little to no politics involved in "The Moot" (or "Congress Assembled") just kind of makes playing the game a little less enjoyable, knowing that most likely if you run into a faction they'll probably just kill you for teh lulz instead of trying to get an alliance or trade or etc.

[Ysh]

Thank you for reply.

I think there are multiple factor for this one. When thing is new, people are willing to overlooked flaw. When thing is rare, people are willing too to overlooked flaw. At this time back there, Haven is new and rare (and I think it still is rare today).'

It's still a fresh game for many players, yes many of the old ones are gone but there are also plenty of new faces around yet the state of the game has drastically changed from then to now. And anyways, global politics being another aspect of the game that doesn't really take place at all either is just as disappointing and you are likely going to be past your new player stage when you participate in such things, if you want to participate at all that is.

I think there is difference between then and now though even with current new player. Back then, player in general was less experience. Also, there is large number of player who are dying for this survival MMO game. It is like this type of player is ''built up'' because there is no outlet. Now Haven exist and has been around for long time, so there is outlet. After initial explosion there is much less of a trickle stream. And since there is already an establish community that is ''too far gone'' it is hard for the more ''larpy'' new players to gain foothold.

And that is reason for these people you refer to no longer playing. Haven does thing well enough that you may pretend it is fun for some time. It has much potential. This is reason you see the men cry for world reset so often.

I think the reasons can be a little more varied and complicated than that but certainly I agree there are many aspects of the game that are lacking. The game is still fun for me because I make my own fun out of things that go beyond the PvP aspect of this game. Not to say I don't attempt participation in it but I also feel that there is more to PvP than simply a combat system in which deadly blows can be swapped on a player to player scale, there is room for so much more than that.

It is certain much more complex, yes. I think I agree with what you write here.

These early player were hungry for this type of experience. They want to roleplay their story in this survival world. The game mechanics of early world are very good at craft this experience. If player is playing the game ''well'' and doing things to progress in strength efficiently and such thing, they are naturally going to play in a way that create this experience. The game mechanics support what player will want to do naturally. This is very important thing for game to have. You want to reward these player for doing thing that player wants to do. The problem is that this is falling apart after some time. Eventual, the game mechanics do not line up with creating this experience. In some case, they merely do not aid the experience. In other case, they actively go against this experience.

I agree completely with that other than the fact that only early players were interested in such experience or that there isn't anyone interested in them now. Just because the bulk of players we have now post boring, uninspired and most often truly pathetic raids against players of a lesser caliber doesn't mean there isn't anyone left who would be willing to put the amount of effort in to a story as was done back then, but rather in my opinion I think the mechanics have been dictated so much lately by those other players that this leaves very little interest to the casual.

Right, it is not that only early players are like this. But as I say above, the community is larger and more of the potential player who are like this have already see game and moved on from it. It is hard for this type of player to hit ''critical mass'' for this type of thing to be commonplace.

You can see some example of this in your thread linked. They talk about how they want some experience like in the real live. Man steals just enough to get by, and the person robbed maybe overlooks it. But game mechanics do not suit this outcome. Game mechanics are such that punishment for steal any item is same as punishment for steal all item.

Yeah and I do understand that perspective, it's more than reasonable to expect that all players should have input on mechanical changes and not just those with specific interests in certain areas of the game and I can accept that.

Yes.

Because of this, it is natural that player who want to play game for experience that does not line up with game mechanic will leave and player who like experience given by game mechanic will stay. I think for some of the people who leave, they will never find game to be happy. I think maybe they do not want a game at all, but they are looking for some roleplay simulation. These players maybe are better off with try to play some pen and paper RPG like the Dungeons and Dragons for getting this kind of experience. But hopeful I am wrong in this case and they will find a game to like eventually. Or a game for them to like is made eventually.

This is dumb though, the game once appealed to them and now it doesn't and to speculate the reasons why is exactly that, speculation. There is a difference between wanting to roleplay and enjoying the political aspects of the game that used to exist and now no longer do.

Everything I am write is at best my opinion and at worst speculation. What I mean to say here is I think many of the player who like this game very much for a short time are the sort of player who is looking for game with quality of hand craft experience, then they become bored when they run out of this hand craft content (i.e. leave early game and unlock all technology building). I think this type of player will enjoy some pen and paper games because it is always hand craft content and very detail. So maybe I am wrong sure, but to call it dumb because it is speculation is not really saying any thing at all. As far as roleplay vs. politics. It seems to me the politics you miss are thing I will call roleplay. Maybe we operate with different definition.

There are two main type of player I think: player who will call some strategy ''cheap,'' and player who is thinking ''whatever is legal is fair.'' These former group of player are early player looking for experience, and this latter group is what remains who looks for game mechanics. I think as a game right now, Haven biggest flaw is lack of combat mechanics. I have say before that I think endgame for this game must have some player conflicts as core activity, and I think this lacking is why Haven does not have staying powers in the late worlds.

I don't blame any player for wanting the game to appeal more to their play style, I only blame the developers for giving in to those players without considering that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Developer is ultimate control over outcomes, yes. But I think player should try hard to mitigate this mistake developer can make. Trying to consider what is good for the game and not just what is good for me is some thing I think the player can try hard to do.

So the reason for these player to ''only care about combat'' is not because they are ''useless cs:gottagofast gamers'' but because they look at game on very mechanical ''gamey'' level. And there is no thing wrong with this one. Different player plays game for different reason. Different man found fun in different thing. I think to disparage this other group with name like this is not desire and not useful. I think you should be look for compromise and come up with mechanic for game that can make for fun game and provide this experience you look for from it. Splitting population to two camp and polarizing all issue is just degenerate into political shitshow and not being useful to any men or useful for this game.

I haven't done any sort of splitting of the population, this is something that has progressed for a very long time now. See this thread for example is a player misinterpreting my comments and the comments of others to be in favour of a game that is completely safe for new players and no killing ever happens and blah blah but that is most definitely not the kind of game I am looking for.

You are not the worst offender on forum. But I think to refer to group of player as ''useless cs:gottagofast gamers'' is doing this at least a bit. Maybe it is make in complete jest, but I get impression you are very jaded with game direction and place some blame on this group of player. Maybe this is impression exclusive to me.

[Ysh]

Holy wall of text, Batman.

If I make postings any shorter, Granger will warning me for shit posting.

EDIT: Maybe I should actually add some input to this topic, instead of just raising my post count for no reason >_>

I do remember the old haven congress. It was pretty larpy, but I enjoyed that fact about it. All this weird "lol xd randem" crap has really taken some of the enjoyment out of this game for me. The fact that there's little to no politics involved in "The Moot" (or "Congress Assembled") just kind of makes playing the game a little less enjoyable, knowing that most likely if you run into a faction they'll probably just kill you for teh lulz instead of trying to get an alliance or trade or etc.

I think I could enjoy for there to be some ''wildcard'' faction that will act irrational for entertain. But if no body is serious at all, it can be hard to take anything as serious. And this I think is no good.

[ven]

Hey everyone.

I used to play HnH around w4-w6 or something like that. To this day, I still think HnH is one of the best games ever made and I could never wrap my head around why is this game not that popular, but that's besides the point =)

When I fist started playing, it's been quite tough to play alone so forum was full of new players looking for a group of like-minded people to establish a small settlement or join a bigger village. There was real drama and politics involved. I remember building 2 layers of a huge wall in one go because everyone was too scared to log out until it's done. I remember digging my first gold on 3rd underground level and then later that same day finding a 30 minimap tunnel to our gold spot leading to a huge Korean village. I remember accidentally recruiting a spy to my village who spent 3 weeks gaining everyone's trust and working hard on village extension until one day we woke up to opened gates and dead livestock. And that was just me, oldfags had way more epic stories to share.

Man, I had so much fun and I must say, I've been missing that in my life ever since i've stopped playing. I've never been very good at combat, but I enjoyed the other aspects of the game. So I have decided to check what's new and registered an account last week. Nice to see some gameplay changes, combat system rework etc. Most importantly, I still enjoy playing this awesome game. However, something doesn't feel right. Sailing around my little defenceless settlement, I see the same picture whichever way I go: decaying abandoned villages, random claims every now and then and no signs of life whatsoever. And yes, you read it right, decaying and abandoned rather than destroyed and looted. Looking for some good old drama and butthurt, I turned to forums, but I found nothing.

As far as I can remember, this game always felt like everyone was on the edge of quitting for good, but I don't remember it being so quiet and peaceful. Is it still alive? It does have 120+ players online at all times, am I just lucky enough to spawn in a remote area or is it really a different game these days?

To be fair, some of those players are bots so the actual number is lower. It seems quiet but fun is had in villages among friends who don't care about posting on the forum. Then again, memory usage skyrockets inside villages and quite a few people are forced to live away from everyone. Many others are mostly waiting - for a crime system update, a combat update, an optimization or a trade update -, before deciding if it's worth investing time and money again. Recent competitive releases haven't made the situation better either, and a good part of my kin list went over to stardewvalley, warframe, fallout, minecraft or some other game. In short: join a village if you want drama and/or fun, but don't expect much at this point of the world.