REVIEW: Game Has Potential, But Snail Is A Psychopath

[kabuto202]

Jesus. Like, I normally try to be at least semi-polite and reasonably explain things, but what is even the point if someone's reading comprehension is so bad they raise points that is retorted by the text they're quoting.

SaaS isn't a buzzword. It's name of a software model that MMOs fall under, but is not limited too. I used it, not because I'm interested in impressing some neckbeards with poor reading comprehension, but because it accurately encapsulates the technical requirements of such software and to point out that there exist a variety of viable solutions including in industries other than gaming.

Like, I'm going to be honest. It's not a productive use of my time to sit here all day pointing out all the flaws in your reading comprehension and/or terrible logic leaps like... How nothing I suggested would actually automatically ban any accounts but rather simply deny mass connections. Or like how you went off on a "ackthually" rant about MMOs with RMT networks having botting issue while quoting text that explicitly excluded financial motivation (and last I checked HnH doesn't have an RMT network). Also it's my New Year's resolution to try and stop wasting my time clapping back at people who are completely clueless.

Otherwise, saying things like this only shows that it is you that misunderstands the intricacies of maintaining these types of anti-botting measures.

Be right back. Gonna gotta go tell my boss as well as a bunch of former clients that we need to shut down all our validation services because some internet stranger has just revealed to me in fact actually have no idea what I'm talking about.

[strpk0]

Jesus. Like, I normally try to be at least semi-polite and reasonably explain things, but what is even the point if someone's reading comprehension is so bad they raise points that is retorted by the text they're quoting.

SaaS isn't a buzzword. It's name of a software model that MMOs fall under, but is not limited too. I used it, not because I'm interested in impressing some neckbeards with poor reading comprehension, but because it accurately encapsulates the technical requirements of such software and to point out that there exist a variety of viable solutions including in industries other than gaming.

Like, I'm going to be honest. It's not a productive use of my time to sit here all day pointing out all the flaws in your reading comprehension and/or terrible logic leaps like... How nothing I suggested would actually automatically ban any accounts but rather simply deny mass connections. Or like how you went off on a "ackthually" rant about MMOs with RMT networks having botting issue while quoting text that explicitly excluded financial motivation (and last I checked HnH doesn't have an RMT network). Also it's my New Year's resolution to try and stop wasting my time clapping back at people who are completely clueless.

Otherwise, saying things like this only shows that it is you that misunderstands the intricacies of maintaining these types of anti-botting measures.

Be right back. Gonna gotta go tell my boss as well as a bunch of former clients that we need to shut down all our validation services because some internet stranger has just revealed to me in fact actually have no idea what I'm talking about.

You seem like exactly the kind of person that makes a living off making it a point to impress others with buzzwords. But that's besides the point.
Lets agree to disagree, you clearly don't know anything about botting in haven if you're suggesting things such as "simply deny mass connections" as a viable solution to botting (or even mentioning AWS as if it has any significance whatsoever to haven botting), and I clearly don't know anything about your industry, how effective or not it is at doing the job you claim you do. Lets not derail this thread any further.

[Zentetsuken]

If jorb and loftar were serious about wanting to deter botting they could have implemented any number of things over the course of the last decade

even something as benign as what ard mentioned, just checking random numbers on a whim

I think it's safe to say that they are exceptionally not interested in the idea of preventing menial tasks from being automated

Everybody does it, from farming, to mining, to making cairns, botting is part of the game


However, when we see people making a script that runs multiple characters at once to insta-kill any player in the game, post it on the forums for the purpose of literally mocking the developers and asking people to pay in order to use such a bot on your custom client - the problem isn't the "botting," the problem is the brazen act of trying to purposefully ruin the game, it's going out of your way to create something as envelope-pushing as possible for the sole purpose of upsetting both the developers and the community. The fact that shubla botted is not the core of the issue here by any means, it's the fact that he is actively trying to create things that literally break the game. Instead of going through the proper bug-reporting procedures, he exploited things he knew were nefarious, recorded himself doing it, and instead of testing it on alts he hunted out people ingame and tested it on live subjects, and had the audacity to use the entire thing as a form of blackmail for the devs, as well as a potential way to make money for himself. Despicable behavior that would have him permabanned without question on any other online game in the entire gaming world.

[Liss12]

Everybody does it

By everybody you mean programmers folks? The guys who actively gatekeep everybody else from playing and competing in the game? The main reason why it stagnates for years with ~80 players 3 months later after each reset? Just to clarify. Are "everybody" willing to bot or they are forced to in order to achieve anything?

[MagicManICT]

As far as the botting goes... I say take a page from A Tale in the Desert. This is another MMO with a player base of a few thousand. There isn't enough income to support more than a very small development team (current team is 3 people, I think?). They've taken the policy of "no afk botting." The original dev (not sure about the current devs) would randomly pop into the game if there were complaints about particular players or if, when looking at the state of the game at the moment, thought someone was running scripts. He'd simply say "hi!" and expect a response. No response given usually got the account banned for 24 hours (no refunds). Repeat offenses would get the account permabanned. Truly heinous uses of botting would get all related accounts banned. Progression was such that much of what was needed wasn't worth an account ban. It's simple, doesn't require a bunch of custom software that has to be constantly updated, and effective enough.

@kabuto202: clearly you know the problem. I, at least, am years past my prime and as often as not have forgotten much. Understand that not everyone here are industry wonks who know all the definitions and abbreviations. Be appropriate to your audience when making arguments. I believe this was likely one of the first parts of your Freshman college classes, either a composition or public speaking class. Part of the problem, unless you're telling me you work in the game industry for someone that develops software like Easy Anti-Cheat, Valve Anti-Cheat, etc, is that you're coming at it like it's a cybersecurity issue and not a scripting/botting issue where the perpetrator is running your software on their computer. It's a massive change in the way things are handled (and said legal implications). It's a massive change in the way things can be hacked and manipulated.

Let's also not forget the value of what you're fighting. In cybersecurity, while not limited to online merchants and banking, it does make up the fattest percentage of value in the industry. The rest of us benefit by getting better anti-virus and firewall software. There is also a major value in keeping out the no brain scripts and other "easy hacks" as those alone used to cause millions of dollars in damage in just a month, be it lost productivity or actual theft. In video games, the value of anti-botting/cheating meausres is strictly made up of the value of the game being managed. I'm not even sure of what the value spaces in MMOs are anymore. If it works like it used to, you have the big games (concurrent users in the tens of thousands,30k to 50k on bottom end, or more), mid tier games (thousands to tens of thousands), and indie (few hundred to a few thousand). The income of these various games are going to be highly dependent on income models (sub vs f2p; buy once, play forever; micro shops). How many have money to spare to throw at custom solutions? How many have money to spare to use auto-updated solutions (VAC, EAC, etc)? In the top two tiers, anti-cheat software is pretty common. Get to the indie tier, and most don't have access to it. The solutions aren't cheap enough, the game is more or less a glorified hobby, or the game tech is such that integrating such 3rd party software is going to cost even more. Yes, someone can make custom software, but is it going to be even close to as good as one of the more commercial automatic systems? Is it even going to be effective.

As far as choosing not to multi-client--well, I can see this for some games that make heavy uses of system resources where only the highest end hardware could run more than one client. Not everyone is going to want to drop thousands of dollars just to play one game and make as hard a run at it as they want. Some games do choose to explicitly ban such things and actually implement (fairly easily) controls on the server end. Just don't fool yourself and think that it solves the problem. For everyone else... it's just a matter of how hard core you want to run at the game or how casually. If you choose to try to be hard core and don't use all available tools, that's your own lack of willpower. And if you're not running at full throttle, you're not going to keep up with those that are, anyway. We all make choices in our lives. Sometimes choices can be very limited. Some people have a lot of free time to throw at games, some have a lot of money to throw at games. Don't hate on those that have made choices other than your own. Life is too short for that.

I think both the botting and the multi-client discussion can be summarized in a philosophy. Since you can't plug either hole with 100% success, do you allow a few people to get away with it, namely a few people you can't come up with proper tools to successfully combat, and they still "ruin the game?" Or do you have an open policy on matters so that anyone that is willing to step up and play a bit harder can get into the competitive end of the game? The latter sounds more fair to me. Remember, we're talking about a game, not protecting financial interests, so take the smug and blow it away to where it doesn't choke everyone up (insert South Park meme here).

I really don't want to run people off from Haven as I think it's a great game with a lot of great qualities. Yes, several issues need to be fixed. I don't want to see people stick around who don't like the game for some very core reasons that aren't likely to be addressed. Sticking around a game and community that doesn't fit your wants is just going to lead to some very strong emotional issues over the short term.

[vatas]

I may be wrong but to my knowledge, Purus was the first person to make public farming bots.

But yea, keep acting like he is the worst botter ever.

Purus is literally Satan for what he did to those three people with his Knarr loaded with bots

He demonstrated a problem devs had refused to consider otherwise.

[cherryquartz]

I may be wrong but to my knowledge, Purus was the first person to make public farming bots.

But yea, keep acting like he is the worst botter ever.

Purus is literally Satan for what he did to those three people with his Knarr loaded with bots

He demonstrated a problem devs had refused to consider otherwise.

Did he tell you that?

HE is complaining about Snail botting when he makes/steals/uses bots himself. What is it you aren't seeing?

I think that there is quite a large a difference between botting good carrots because you want to see big Q number. Which is relatively harmless and innocent.
And botting to abuse people (killing, raiding, banning from chat etc.) for your sadistic and sociopathic needs.

He also USED a bot to kill people, the very thing he is complaining about.

[Zentetsuken]

Everybody does it

By everybody you mean programmers folks? The guys who actively gatekeep everybody else from playing and competing in the game? The main reason why it stagnates for years with ~80 players 3 months later after each reset? Just to clarify. Are "everybody" willing to bot or they are forced to in order to achieve anything?

It's surely no secret that some of the more savvy players probably have more bots at their disposal, but this is the very reason that custom clients have existed throughout development.
There have been oodles of publicly available bots and oodles of people within the community willing to share, help and distribute.
The reason that they are not used by absolutely every player is because they are generally only "needed" within the top pvp villages in order to maintain top tier qualities and industry I guess.
Even with access to the full arsenal of private bots that some veteran "programmer folk" in a realm defending pvp village might have, the average hermitage or casual player would probably hardly benefit without the dozens of active players that such a top tier realm village would have anyways.

I may be wrong but to my knowledge, Purus was the first person to make public farming bots.

But yea, keep acting like he is the worst botter ever.

Purus is literally Satan for what he did to those three people with his Knarr loaded with bots

He demonstrated a problem devs had refused to consider otherwise.

The point is that he should not be judged as a botter,
the botting aspect of what he did is irrelevant since botting in itself is a mute point when discussing illicit behaviors.

his behaviour as a player is nefarious, in this particular example the botting was only a tool in his arsenal, it is his intentions and methods that should be judged

[shubla]

Calling an MMO a SAAS is surely quite amusing.

[kabuto202]

@MagicManICT: I mostly agree with you. Coincidentally I've done both. I've written cybersecurity logic for a variety of fintech and data companies, and now I'm in a position at a publisher where some of my work includes our internal anti-abuse tools (the publisher owns the studios). I'm under no delusion that people's financial records are going to get leaked because of this (although the lack of an SSL cert on this site always makes me wince a bit). However, it's obvious that this game has an issue with people getting an unfair advantage over others or at least an incredibly strong perception of it. People seem to universally decry exploits as "the problem" because it effectively lets people bypass the limits of the game, but how is a large scale botting any different? Like how are you practically going to convince a prospective newbie that someone growing a rage alt at 200 times the growth rate of an average characters is unfair because of a code exploit, but fair because there's a village of bots force feeding them? You're effectively arguing the difference between multiplication and adding things together several times.

You bring up a good point with Tales. Even a very basic solution seems to have provide some level of results. Now obviously, I'm pretty probably biased, but even basic level preventive measures are pretty easy to implement. I'm sure that the guys who managed to code up two entire MMOs from scratch, have the technical chops to implement a couple checks to prevent people from running entire bot villages. Because I don't see individual automation as a problem, ideally no-AFK botting rule would be dope, but even then the damage is pretty limited to being that of roughly who might just be playing the game a bit much. I don't have an inherit issue with multi-clienting, but the issues rises up when its combined with automation. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I had the choice of allowing multi-clienting without any automation or allowing automation without multi-clienting. I would prefer the latter.

As for your philosophy, I think your axioms are flawed. Why would necessarily a small part of community be able to get away with it and be undetected? Lets assume that someone wastes all the time and money required to avoid detection. Get some premium VPN so all their bots connect from different IP addresses that aren't on any open-source VPN/datacenter lists so they're not autoblocked. How long until some salty nerd walks up to the base records a bunch of video evidence of obvious botting behavior and sends it to the devs and all that shit gets glassed? If the percentile of the community that's doing this grows large enough that the devs can't handle it on their own, I'm sure they'll have the money to hire an intern to do it for them.

Also for the record, I don't have any issues with Haven on a core level. I think as a game it's incredibly enjoyable. Most of my issues are basically community level ones, which is why in another thread I was asking for a private server as that would basically solve all the problems I have with it.