Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder hobos?

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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby Reiber » Tue Dec 10, 2024 4:52 pm

matheuswm wrote:
I do think your experience is valid, but just take into consideration:

How many hours has every time you died WITHOUT A CHANCE TO FIGHT BACK (excluding animal deaths of course) set you back?
How many hours do you play per world to stay remotely within range of being able to fight back?
How long would a player take to even recuperate a 50% loss to his attributes if he plays 10h a week?
Should 20h/week minimum be necessary for this game to be enjoyed?

-People say lategame in this game is boring. Sure, if you're so overfed that every dungeon is cheesable by having high stats you'll never face a problem, but most people don't even reach enough stats to do dungeons. The lategame isn't boring, you're just complaining that you got to a lvl 60 encounter while being lvl 99. Mythic dungeons in WoW might be your thing if you need something to occupy you 50h a week for marginal improvement.

-I'm very confident most people claiming this game's combat is baby-like and boring in order to complain about us who don't care about PVPing with their beefed alts never pick unfair fights with trolls, wolfpacks, mammoths or even players, using their mains. You need INSANE stats time-wise to fight them fairly.


Player interaction
-The fact visitor gates and similar mechanics have to exist so we have central markets such as WB is proof you do need this type of mechanic to allow for peaceful cooperation and growth, just like complex societies need laws to function. Being unable to have even a single place to interact safely is detrimental, and the burden was on the community to maintain such environment, but what happens when nobody wants to put in this effort?


i mean, you experience is valid aswell, i know it well even, been there for a long time.
but in hindsight, (and there is still a lot in this game i am oblivious of, or chose to not pick up )
most of these points came from a failure to understand how this game plays out in the long run.
let me try to share, how i see certain things now:
1. somehow, yes, this game that claims to boast infinite progression needs to reward interaction, and obviously, if you play 20-40 hours a week, you will see your effort bear fruit. but i think thats a good thing, a lot of wich can be relativized with knowledge, discipline and eficciency. i know for a fact, that a lot of players, that are ontop of the stat/quality curve of me, spend way less time on the game, they just know what to eat, and when, and how, and dont spend so much time aimlessly larping :
death has been nerfed multiple times so far, and currently it is absolutely feasable to reclaim all your stats/hunger and gear in under 6 hours, with a bit of luck and a modicum of support from people in your village.

this might be harder for solo players. but even small villages of non competitive players can pull that off, but in the end, it kinda balances itself out somewhat, as the % loss of stats, kinda balances out the fact that, its easier to regain your stats, the more meaningfull the loss of stats was ,
so jonny 50 mc, prop can just eat his table empty, and gets his stats back,

in the end, haven world circles tend to be marathons, ofcourse you can sprint ahead of the curve and terrorize people, but in the end, every scrub comes intoo an statrange, where you arent ahead enough anymore to just faceroll 1v4 against scrub characters piloted by decent players anymore.

2.dungeons are a whole diffent bag of worms my friend, they are buggy unrewarding messes, jonny 50mc actually can solo ant dungeons, i did that with lower stats, its just about knowing in wich ways jorbtard fucked up dungeon generation this time, not so much stats,
and beaver and bat dungeons, are basically uncheesable, and largely rng dependant. i saw 50 faction boys in steelarmor getting hopelessly fucked, and mediocre fighters grind their way through solo, with shit q bronzeplates.

lower threat dungeons have way better rewards actually, bat dungeons have a single ultra rare drop that is worth something, never saw that one in 10+ dungeons over multiple worlds, and its single use.
ant , and bee dungeons are doable by scrubs, and very much worthwhile.
but yes, they are way more fun with multiple people and better gear and stats, i give you that, dungeons are very much intended as group content.
and overworld lategame content can all be cheesed with a spear.

but that isnt the true lategame, currently the true lategame is infinitely spiraling your quality in ever smaller increments, once you reached lvl9 while also seeing how that stat , and quality lead you have , and maintain, means less and less, as scrubs can buy swords 120q, but just 80 damage below yours, and while you eat your farmer to exhaustion, they start lessening the % gap with , like 20 pumpkinpies.
meanwhile. those same scrubs, discover that collecting 900 hedgehogs lets them buy better gear than they could craft themself if they did nothing but mine all day. and loose interest.

3. someone will always make a market, that shit is printing money. and the same guys are always trying to tear it down.
if you like a market, learn to defend it, if not, just wait for its management to fuck up, or rile up the forums, and wait for the next one .

4. base safety and visitor gates are 100% gay, compleatly agree with you, this whole game is just a set of noobtraps that are only working to allow the playerbase to regulate themself if they know how to utilize them, or try to deter bots, and if you dont know how to play around it, you fall intoo the bot traps. its an unfortunate hurdle, that eventually could be cleaned up perhaps, but at this time, it is an functioning(hopefully) part of the games evolution to an better state.
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby The_Lich_King » Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:27 pm

Reiber wrote:
The_Lich_King wrote:
He won't interact with it because the opposition is so far ahead that there is no point in trying to fight back vs running. this is the reality of basically all solo players.


yes, but being competent enough to not instantly die if you are ganked, is significantly more easy than most solo players would think, and is a main reason, why a big portion of all ganks, arent about, you getting chased down by some guy that came with a boat, but 5 guys, and 3 alts, trying to ambush you at a roadport, or in a shitty safepali, so they can acurately calculate your hhp, and opknock you for the execute, or collecting midges, or whatever.

hermit fighter chars have existed and still exist, and non incompetent solo players, have infinitely higher survival chances, than "jonny 50mc(cause you dont need more cheesing foxes) that refuses to take more than 1 waterskin, thinks armour is only for pvp players, and tryes to hearth when he sees a player. and dosnt move.


Hermit fighter characters aren't online until far into the late game mostly because by then their industry has caught up and factions have fucked themselves but yes I remember the days when Frost would solo a character to world leader and have solo battles, or the days you'd run into some russian with 2000 melee who one shots you in a tiny one screen pali.

Notably though you'll note it is far rarere now than it used to be. Its far harder for hermits to catch up in the current meta but not impossible. All this to say though, combat skills have minimal impact at this point in the game for hermits because its going to take awhile for our industry to catch up... usually strong hermits appear in the midworld
Last edited by The_Lich_King on Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ysh wrote: I think you are jordancoles. You saying this for throwing off of track to make me thinking I am jordancoles.


Onep wrote: If I had to choose between drowning you and savoring every moment as your face desperately gasps for air beneath the brine or saving the planet, I'd choose you everytime.
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby The_Lich_King » Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:32 pm

matheuswm wrote:
Reiber wrote:
The_Lich_King wrote:.

.



The funniest demographic to analyze is the one that pretends they're hardcore because they teamup whenever a world starts and then proceed to curbstomp everyone while claiming sieges and open faction war "are not worth the trouble", while only picking fights they could easily win. Crying about storm being op just because they were unable to win for once in their lives.

If you were all about the challenge, the game " being for hardcore gamers", and the tools of keeping up like the handicaps were enough we'd have faction wars until the world ends, but no, once they feel they're not ahead they quit and wait a new world or just resort to hunting spruces.



let's say jonny 50mc does learn how to do all of that, just to MAYBE have a chance against hermit hunters. he will still:

feel demotivated to leave his pali to explore the world and hunt, because hermit mchunter is definitely around
be unable to enjoy meeting people ingame because of low trust
have to work 2 different alts if he REALLY wants to, at least, protect his main from dying

Are all of these avoidable if he just "grit his teeth" and found a group to play? Yeah. Is he safe from griefers even after doing all of this nonsense? no. So what's the point?



If you don't trust anyone thats on you. I got ganked 3 times in the early world only 1 of which I escaped successfully. Despite this i have a uber positive relationship with my neighbors, we had a seeds exchange going and a wild animal exhange and I am trading for forageables with loads of sprucees around me. If you become jaded by a few ganks you'll serious hurt your enjoyment and lose out on some great player interactions
Last edited by The_Lich_King on Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ysh wrote: I think you are jordancoles. You saying this for throwing off of track to make me thinking I am jordancoles.


Onep wrote: If I had to choose between drowning you and savoring every moment as your face desperately gasps for air beneath the brine or saving the planet, I'd choose you everytime.
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby The_Lich_King » Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:43 pm

matheuswm wrote:
Reiber wrote:
matheuswm wrote:
The funniest demographic to analyze is the one that pretends they're hardcore because they teamup whenever a world starts and then proceed to curbstomp everyone while claiming sieges and open faction war "are not worth the trouble", while only picking fights they could easily win. Crying about storm being op just because they were unable to win for once in their lives.

If you were all about the challenge, the game " being for hardcore gamers", and the tools of keeping up like the handicaps were enough we'd have faction wars until the world ends, but no, once they feel they're not ahead they quit and wait a new world or just resort to hunting spruces.



let's say jonny 50mc does learn how to do all of that, just to MAYBE have a chance against hermit hunters. he will still:

feel demotivated to leave his pali to explore the world and hunt, because hermit mchunter is definitely around
be unable to enjoy meeting people ingame because of low trust
have to work 2 different alts if he REALLY wants to, at least, protect his main from dying

Are all of these avoidable if he just "grit his teeth" and found a group to play? Yeah. Is he safe from griefers even after doing all of this nonsense? no. So what's the point?



my man, i am not talking to you as a faction player here, that sits behind his pali all day, and feeds alts to the slaughter,
i have played and survived mostly alone or in small 2-5 man groups with personal friends, or been an satilite to middeling villages , with lone competent players. for multiple worlds now, my first world, i got vidol blocked in by AD, after they bashed my pali before, cause i didnt bother to realize i wasnt alone in a vast unclaimed world, but actually just a spruce setteling on a river, 4 minimaps away from a faction village,
and ever since, the only alt i ever use, is one to aggro mammoths, and another to click on dovecotes, or beehives.

i am still a massive scrub, days behind hermit mc hunter early, and 4 weeks in the game, i am 3 months of stat progression behind people that care,
and i am sitting here, larping on an unoptimized client, and yet , in those years, i have managed to be the hermit hunter on occasion, aswell as escape them a few times, got shit on in faction pvp, and survived b12 ganking squads. even fought off some people.

i have defenitely died more to animals than pvp,

100% agree to the retards bitching to much whenever something beats b12 beatdown though. that shit is retarded, "if anything but bunny slippers is viable that kills skill progression"

to your last 3 points: i generally agree about there existence, but i actually appreciate them:
- you should be scared to go outside, thats important for a survival game, bears dont manage to do that, but players do, and much better than creepers, or zombies you can cheese, or whatever other games offer.

- low trust shouldnt make you unable to enjoy social interaction, infact that is social interaction, and you shouldnt trust somebody who only dosnt fuck you over because they cant.

- never used alts, rarely died.



I do think your experience is valid, but just take into consideration:

How many hours has every time you died WITHOUT A CHANCE TO FIGHT BACK (excluding animal deaths of course) set you back?
How many hours do you play per world to stay remotely within range of being able to fight back?
How long would a player take to even recuperate a 50% loss to his attributes if he plays 10h a week?
Should 20h/week minimum be necessary for this game to be enjoyed?

-People say lategame in this game is boring. Sure, if you're so overfed that every dungeon is cheesable by having high stats you'll never face a problem, but most people don't even reach enough stats to do dungeons. The lategame isn't boring, you're just complaining that you got to a lvl 60 encounter while being lvl 99. Mythic dungeons in WoW might be your thing if you need something to occupy you 50h a week for marginal improvement.

-I'm very confident most people claiming this game's combat is baby-like and boring in order to complain about us who don't care about PVPing with their beefed alts never pick unfair fights with trolls, wolfpacks, mammoths or even players, using their mains. You need INSANE stats time-wise to fight them fairly.


Player interaction
-The fact visitor gates and similar mechanics have to exist so we have central markets such as WB is proof you do need this type of mechanic to allow for peaceful cooperation and growth, just like complex societies need laws to function. Being unable to have even a single place to interact safely is detrimental, and the burden was on the community to maintain such environment, but what happens when nobody wants to put in this effort?



I beat a Badger dungeon with 30 MC (50 with gear bonus) and a Q45 Flint Knife on week 1 of this world. I have done a Foxhole with 20 MC before but i get what you mean. Late game content is going to be inaccessible to those without deep experience and knowledge of the games mechanics
Ysh wrote: I think you are jordancoles. You saying this for throwing off of track to make me thinking I am jordancoles.


Onep wrote: If I had to choose between drowning you and savoring every moment as your face desperately gasps for air beneath the brine or saving the planet, I'd choose you everytime.
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby MightySheep » Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:45 pm

The_Lich_King wrote:Hermit fighter characters aren't online until far into the late game mostly because by then their industry has caught up and factions have fucked themselves but yes I remember the days when Frost would solo a character to world leader and have solo battles, or the days you'd run into some russian with 2000 melee who one shots you in a tiny one screen pali.

Notably though you'll note it is far rarere now than it used to be. Its far harder for hermits to catch up in the current meta but not impossible. All this to sat though, combat skills are of minimal effort at this point in the game for hermits because its going to take awhile for our industry to catch up... usually strong hermits appear in the midworld

i dont agree in the slightest, hermits can have competitive pvp character with not much effort in current haven
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby Kaios » Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:55 pm

MightySheep wrote:
MightySheep wrote:1500 players at start 1500 players now

I watched a poe2 dev interview the other day and I think its a pretty good point relevant to haven by top tier game devs https://youtu.be/dsrIEWXPHlo?t=2244

haven player retention has been op as hell this world for a ruthless game like this, wtf u guys talking about lmao

and in that interview I linked its the poe dev talking about how stupid the idea of thinking you have to have people play your game for eternity, its fine for people to come and go, if they get 1-2 month of gaming nothing wrong with that

there was a pretty noticeable drop when poe2 came out but in general the pop has been pretty damn stable this world

also steam "influx" is always over rated as hell its like 200 ppl at most, ive seen lots of games release on steam and they always think its gonna be mega and it never is


I don't think concurrent players have been that high since the day you posted that. I'm not disagreeing with you that it's fine for players to come and go, the question is how much of the content are they actually experiencing? Do most players get deeper than L3-L5 mines? Successfully hunt a mammoth, whale, troll? Construct a knarr? Complete a dungeon? Participate in pvp? Kill another player? Siege a village? Obtain some meteorite ore? I could go on.

Or do they spend a month building a tiny palisade with an even smaller farm, maybe one minehole, complete the forager credo, tame a sheep, and then get killed/bored and quit. I agree it's good if they had fun in that time but surely they are not getting the chance to experience the majority of content before they stop playing.

I wonder if anyone bothers to build a brick wall anymore for defensive purposes and not the aesthetic.
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby gravesmerch » Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:00 pm

All I know is I mined most my cave systems up to level 4, and have yet to discover Iron

back in the day you could find at lvl 1, devs keep pushing further and further, good luck with that mentality, maybe it pays of financially, since the world works the way it works

I dont feel like going against the RNG destiny, it's been a struggle since W9 but it keeps getting worse and worse
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby boshaw » Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:21 pm

gravesmerch wrote:All I know is I mined most my cave systems up to level 4, and have yet to discover Iron

back in the day you could find at lvl 1, devs keep pushing further and further, good luck with that mentality, maybe it pays of financially, since the world works the way it works

I dont feel like going against the RNG destiny, it's been a struggle since W9 but it keeps getting worse and worse

Don't worry buddy, once RNG blesses you with chalco for some iron you'll then have to pray to find iron orche just so you can make forges for wrought, and then once you do that you'll need bloodstone just to be able to make steel crucibles.
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby Delamore » Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:30 pm

The_Lich_King wrote:I beat a Badger dungeon with 30 MC (50 with gear bonus) and a Q45 Flint Knife on week 1 of this world. I have done a Foxhole with 20 MC before but i get what you mean. Late game content is going to be inaccessible to those without deep experience and knowledge of the games mechanics

So what you're saying is you found a badger dungeon without any of the hard room type?
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Re: Is the game dying already due to group/faction murder ho

Postby BigCountry » Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:31 pm

Down to 1k +- players it looks like. Peak 1200, Low ?800?
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