Would Jorbtar move to America?

[jordancoles]

I've known more than a few immigrants. Life as the working poor is better here than wherever they come from, and is the reason they keep coming despite all apparent efforts to get rid of them.

Safety regulations here and in the US would ensure a healthy work environment at least, even if the job itself is hard labour

I watched a documentary on gold mining not too long ago and the dudes were literally handling vials of mercury and using their thumb as a partial cork so that they wouldn't pour out too much at once. They did that shit for 16 hours a day while living in mud shacks and shit lol; a whole village going blind and getting the shakes because of it

Even if the job is total garbage by our standards I'm sure those dudes would jump at the chance because just having a baseline of safety in the workplace is something that we take for granted

[Glorthan]

I've known more than a few immigrants. Life as the working poor is better here than wherever they come from, and is the reason they keep coming despite all apparent efforts to get rid of them.

I'm sure life in a Gulag would be preferable to Auschwitz, but the anecdote isn't particularly useful. People don't usually realise how good or bad their situation is until they go somewhere better; we have a very myopic viewpoint based on our extremely limited individual life experiences.

That's why we have nice objective measures like standard of living (which measures income versus cost), safety (a large reason people migrate/flee from the third world, ironically to america sometimes), and income/wealth distribution.

Perhaps living hand to mouth as one of the bottom 50% of Americans sharing that huge 12% income split is better than being extorted/shot/etc. in Sub-Saharan Africa, but there are certainly much better alternatives that exist, such as literally almost every other developed country in the world.

[Jalpha]

Why defend such inequality? Brainwashing at work here I think. We only sing the National Anthem once a week during our schooling here and we aren't scared of traveling the world to see what's out there either.

It's a mildly fascist attitude displayed by Americans. I think their level of intelligence is the least of their problems.

[shubla]

Well you stopped calling everyone/everything "dumb" and started linking stuff, so I'm chalking this up to a win,

You are dumb for not searching your sources.

and we aren't scared of traveling the world to see what's out there either.

Majority of americans still never leave their country during their lifetime.

[Lord_of_War]

Nah I just don't care about your personal dislike of nato. America #1

[LadyV]

You know I usually avoid these topics but Ill make a comment on this. There are many problems in the world, even in nations that claim to be the best. None of us are perfect and solutions that work elsewhere may not work here. That however is alright. The unique mix that makes a nation is what defines it.

To some I see replying your people are just now dealing with a multi-cultural presence in your countries. Your in part doing very badly at it as well. It is much easier to have a mono-culture. things flow smoother with commonality. It is when you get multiple ethnicities, beliefs, and cultures you begin to see problems. The more diversity the more issues as there is no one culture to merge into.

The US from it's founding has been a sort of melting pot so it has far more experience in such. That is one you can not deny. Do they do it perfectly? No.

The primary issues facing the whole world right now are greed, fame, and power. Three very old motivations from our past. Leaders...people have succumb to the desire to be absolute in their thoughts and beliefs. They ignore minorities and sometimes majorities just to shape the world they way they want it, the way it benefits themselves.

You want to solve the worlds problems the listen and understand. Stop projecting your views as absolute and realize there is another Human looking back at your with a different story and background. No one is better or worse, that is an illusion. We are one people whether you like that thought or not. And each part of our whole is made of individuals. Everyone matters. Every voice matters. When you realize that the solutions will come.

Till then I fully expect much finger pointing and name calling, maybe even fighting. Some people must beat their heads against walls to learn whats most important, Humanity. Claim it or don't but if you do not realize the opposite is called inhumanity.

All right I said my piece. You all carry on.

[MagicManICT]

I'm sure life in a Gulag would be preferable to Auschwitz, but the anecdote isn't particularly useful. People don't usually realise how good or bad their situation is until they go somewhere better; we have a very myopic viewpoint based on our extremely limited individual life experiences.

And I'm sure your comparison of my argument to actual prisons is a whole level of troll appropriate to reasonable discusion... You're either implying being poor here is a prison where you're routinely subjected to tortures or not allowed out of your cells, maybe even genocided... As a member of the working poor, I can assure you it is neither. I don't get to roam the world, but does anyone foot the bill of one of your poor to do so? (I could if I were willing to get my passport and bum my way around it however I could.)

I could go on about how we could correct our issues with just minor shifts in the budget without raising any more taxes, but a large majority of the conservatives in the country are either greedy bastards or brainwashed into thinking they're a part of the elite. (Small historical hint: it's at these times when the greatest emipres fell on their collective asses.) Arguments otherwise are lost on them. Can't convince people who believe the universe is only 6000 years old of anything.

[Glorthan]

And I'm sure your comparison of my argument to actual prisons is a whole level of troll appropriate to reasonable discusion... You're either implying being poor here is a prison where you're routinely subjected to tortures or not allowed out of your cells, maybe even genocided... As a member of the working poor, I can assure you it is neither. I don't get to roam the world, but does anyone foot the bill of one of your poor to do so? (I could if I were willing to get my passport and bum my way around it however I could.)

I was directly replying to your anecdote of the immigrant families you referred to. I personally know immigrant families who lost some of their extended family to violent regimes that I believe would be happy in peaceful third world countries; it's all a matter of perspective. Obviously the US isn't a prison, but in many ways being an immigrant there is vastly worse than other developed countries. Hence the comparison of third world to working class US as both being suboptimal.

Our working "poor" can generally afford outgoings such as an overseas holiday ever so often (single income large families obviously being the exception), but I didn't make the comment about going overseas. Holidaying overseas doesn't really give you much insight, IMO. Volunteer aid/disaster relief would be much more beneficial. Our actual poor are usually the ones just mooching off benefits with zero employment, fuck 'em. Where did work for the dole go?

I could go on about how we could correct our issues with just minor shifts in the budget without raising any more taxes, but a large majority of the conservatives in the country are either greedy bastards or brainwashed into thinking they're a part of the elite. (Small historical hint: it's at these times when the greatest emipres fell on their collective asses.) Arguments otherwise are lost on them.

I agree. The last (unquoted) sentence didn't seem to have much bearing on economic policy/outcomes however.

[Jalpha]

Two things.

Firstly I acknowledge that the USA evolved to be the way it is for reasons (ie. the cold war), though I won't profess that I'm a professional on the matter/s. The few intellectuals I encountered there who actually had an understanding of why they were how they are offered a perspective I consider invaluable.

The second is that I don't think you can use multiculturalism as any kind of excuse for societal issues. Australia is one of the most multicultural countries worldwide, if not the most. We have surprisingly few social issues considering, and our biggest is the inhabitants prior to European colonization. Unlike most other settled continents we didn't slaughter the vast majority of the native inhabitants and so the scale of that issue is larger than in other places. Largely though things are relatively incident free, aside from events like the Cronulla riots, which while admittedly shameful, highlighted some of the issues of having people with different cultural values settle here in large numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

Not that Australia is the best, or better than everywhere else, but it is certainly better in some aspects particularly than other parts of the world. Like the USA. I'm astounded that the people there are largely ignorant to the glaring faults inherent to their culture. I will however say that fascism has it's uses. It's not wholly a negative thing. It was also interesting to compare issues such as racism (which Australia is renowned for) between the USA and Australia. I just wish the USA would be a little more aware globally and socially within their own nation. They seem to predate upon other nations to a larger extent than most, particularly among our close allies. Not that we don't do exactly the same thing. Anyone who thinks East Timor was about freeing an independent nation and not about gas is a fool.

[jordancoles]

Australia is a bad example since no one has time to fight with each other because literally everything else is trying to kill you at all times