The Science Delusion - Rupert Sheldrake

[sMartins]

Math is a human invention to describe consistent observations of our environment. You can describe the universe in ways other than math, too.

Name one that's anywhere near as consistent and accurate.

It depends on what you want to talk about. Does feelings exist? Does love exist, or hate, war or ..... in short, does irrational exist? yes, of course it's the answer, we could also say that irrationality it's the only thing that actually exist, what you would call, the truth. You cannot talk about those things with science, but you can with poetry, philosophy, religion and arts in general.
Rationality, that is the foundation of science and material thought, is simply not true.
Rationality, in short, says that an object has only one meaning and not more, that's it.
A pen is only a pen, a tree is only a tree .... and so on, but we know very well that it's not true, I can use a pen as a weapon, or as a soother for a child, etc... etc...
Even looking at languages we can see how this does not work, in asian cultures for example, trees are not called all the same, but every tree has a specific name ... cause they are not the same, but we abstract the concept under a materialistic view of the word, for convenience, but again, it's not the truth.
A carpenter and a poet in front of a forest, they don't see the same thing: the carpenter sees just woods to build fornitures from, the poet sees the beauty of it.
The reality is everything and nothing at the same time, it's irrational. Rationality, by definition, cannot talk about the irrational.
In short, as it was said in the video, science would never be able to explain itself.

[Potjeh]

That's a nice strawman you got there.

[sMartins]

That's a nice strawman you got there.

What you mean? that's my thinking is not solid? prove it to me.

Edit:
Law of noncontradiction
The rationalism, the reason, the mind (idk how you are used to call it in English) is not the truth but a set of rules that give us mainly 2 benefits:
1- Understand with eachothers
2- Reduce the anxiety of our behaviors
The reason is headed by the law of noncontradiction, that says one thing is itself and nothing else.
But we also know that this is not the truth, all things are polyvalent, they have in themselves a plurality of meanings.

[shubla]

soon or later, would be able to take into consideration stuff that is not rational, and that, to me, is impossible by definition, it's not possible to rationalize the irrational, otherwise would not be irrational anymore and viceversa.

There may be some stuff taht we do not understand enough of (yet). It will be very rational after it is studied enough.
Though some things may be very, very complex, maybe even so complex that they will never be fully understood by humankind. But even if some things are very complex, I dont think that they would be irrational.

[sMartins]

soon or later, would be able to take into consideration stuff that is not rational, and that, to me, is impossible by definition, it's not possible to rationalize the irrational, otherwise would not be irrational anymore and viceversa.

There may be some stuff taht we do not understand enough of (yet). It will be very rational after it is studied enough.
Though some things may be very, very complex, maybe even so complex that they will never be fully understood by humankind. But even if some things are very complex, I dont think that they would be irrational.

Yes of course, I agree with your first sentence.
What I think is we won't ever be able to rationalize some aspects of reality, cause rationality and logic is just a tool, like an hammer is, you can use the hammer for some jobs, not for all.
So, I'm not escluding the possibility we will develop a new way to interrogate and inspect the reality, giving us answers that science is not capable to give us.
That what I think, but of course the last part is science-fiction, the most reasonable answer would be: nobody knows.

[shubla]

Science is not reality. It is a way to explain why things are happening like they are around us. With scientific method or what they call it, we can make up very good guesses about how things work.

I believe in science, math I am not so sure about. However I feel it is the greatest folly of our species to teach the youth of today that we know everything. Some foundational priciples upon which our education is built are very shaky and incomplete.

I don't think that anyone says that we know everything.
They say that the more you learn about some field, the more you realize that you know nothing about it, and possibly the whole field has lots and lots of unanswered questions, and things that no one really knows.

Things in science are not in a constant state, like, theories are only theories.
It is nearly impossible to prove anything with empirical evidence.
Some theories may change over time, as new, better ones are being made up.
For example, gravity is the best explanation for bunch of things that are happening, many people have been trying to prove it wrong, unsuccessfully, thus it has gained lots of credibility, and is now widely accepted, even to the point of calling it a "law".
If somebody is able to credibly prove that the whole theory of gravity is wrong, and maybe provide some better explanations, then most people would probably start using the new theory.
In some sciences such as mathematics we can basically prove everything with 100% certainty, mostly because we can define mathematics up ourselves, so of course it will be accurate. (In many sciences, we don't make up things but instead try to explain things happening around us)

"I dont believe in maths" sound weird, maybe it is some language barrier issue. Because as I mentioned above, mathematics is a set of rules and things defined by the humans, how could it not be true if it is something that we made up ourselves?
Mathematics does not exist as a thing by itself, we just made it all up, to describe the world around us.

As an example I believe that there is an infinite number of universes superimposed on top of each other but out of phase with each other.

This is probably not true.
If it is, that would mean that there exists every single possible state that is possible with laws of physics.
So if there were infinite amount of universes, there is one universe where I am right now hitting you with a golf club, or actually bunch of different ones, where all this is happening, except that 1 particle is in different state and so on.


Or then I have understood the concept of infinity wrong? Probably not!
If the universe with me hitting you with a golf club would not exist, then there would be infinite minus one universes, right? So it would not be infinite?

Math isn't a human invention.

Whose invention it is then? Made up by aliens? I dont think so.
Mathematics is just a concept, thing, entirely "invented" by humans to describe many things.
There are many other concepts too that are made up by humans to describe the thigns around us.
I think that the problem is in how one defines the word "mathematics", people might have different definitions of the word.

Medicine is not a hard science. Math is. There is no alternative to the addition operation for example. Different cultures throughout history have come up with exact same mathematical rules totally independent of each other. That's because math isn't invented, it's discovered. If we discover intelligent extraterrestrial life, it's going to use those same basic rules of mathematics as foundation for all their science.

I dont think that something like the addition operation is science, but just some basic logic.

It depends on what you want to talk about. Does feelings exist? Does love exist, or hate, war or ....

I think that feelings are just chemicals and electrical impulses in the brain, causing things to our consciousness.
But then again, quite difficult things that we think of, what really is consciousness and so on.

Rationality, in short, says that an object has only one meaning and not more, that's it.

No, rationality is "The quality of being based on or in accordance with reason or logic", there can be many logical meanings for one object..

[shubla]

I would also like to add that science is not a religion or some thing that you can choose to believe in or not.

[sMartins]

If a computer reads 0=1, that computer will never work. 0 and 1 must to be specific.
Just setting the rules we are already limiting the reality.
If I say to you: give me that pen, you bring to me the pen, not a pie .... there is only one meaning at time in our logic, otherwise we won't be able to communicate and live togethere.
Edit:
Also I can prove you how we are not rational, but we become rational every day, it's a work we have to do every day in the morning, indeed the first hour of the day or so, we still use rituals, like washing ourself, making breakfast ... we do those actions almost in third person view, while recovering our consciousness to be ready to introduce ourselves in the world = be ready to act according to rules.

[shubla]

If a computer reads 0=1, that computer will never work. 0 and 1 must to be specific.
Just setting the rules we are already limiting the reality.
If I say to you: give me that pen, you bring to me the pen, not a pie .... there is only one meaning at time in our logic, otherwise we won't be able to communicate and live togethere.
Edit:
Also I can prove you how we are not rational, but we become rational every day, it's a work we have to do every day in the morning, indeed the first hour of the day or so, we still use rituals, like washing ourself, making breakfast ... we do those actions almost in third person view, while recovering our consciousness to be ready to introduce ourselves in the world = be ready to act according to rules.

What

[MagicManICT]

1. Math isn't a science. It's a logical construct of axioms, laws, theorems, proofs, etc. There are no theories in math. There is no scientific method, no experimentation. It is or it isn't. In essence, it is the purest form of philosophical argument.

2. There is no "hard" or "soft" science, just science. If you can properly apply the scientific method and come up with a plausible theory, it's science. Everything else is just hoodoo manipulation of the irrational mind. "Soft" is a concept invented by those who would want you to think that their miracle cream and snake oil work.

There may be some stuff taht we do not understand enough of (yet). It will be very rational after it is studied enough.

Every question answered only brings up yet another question. We may never actually escape the cave and can only ever see false shadows.

And all things that are irrational, as we typically use the word, can be explained in some manner. After all, the thought process is made of logical steps based on observation and experience. If we could know and understand the various inputs that led to the formation of irrational thinking, we can correct it. The problem is memory isn't necessary to continue long term thoughts and behavior once they form.