Hafen really for niche audience or it not advertise enough?

[MagicManICT]

I'm also going to defend the graphics by pointing out the success of project zomboid.

Runescape, still, about 15 years later, the graphics have "gotten better" but still aren't equal to a AAA game when it was first released (also a Java based game); Dwarf Fortress--ASCII tile set like old school roguelikes--graphic packs available, but not "noob friendly" to set them up (thankful forum users have set up download packages with everything configured); Crypt of the Necrodancer--very basic sprite based tile graphics circa 1990 RPGs, though the effects are more current with some the particles and lighting available. I'm sure we could go on with dozens of examples.

Correct. However the real issue I believe she is highlighting is a total lack of direction for the new player.

Go collect a branch and some water is a really boring introduction to the survival crafting MMO experience.

It's a good point, but what direction should a player be given starting out? What direction is there? This isn't Call of Duty and your drill sergeant is hollering "Pick up that rifle!" You can do whatever you want, whenever you want, to whomever you want. The only direction a player has is what they want to do. A lot of people don't like that in a game. Look at EVE compared to WoW. While EVE has a pretty thorough tutorial (has to, nothing in that game is intuitive like most other games), afterwards (about 4-6 hours of game time), you are still left up to do for yourself. I've met a lot of people that tried EVE for the lure of the stories and PvP, but quit because it was too tedious or not enough direction.

[jordancoles]

People are used to good service and nice tutorials, so they feel almost offended when they see the game does not teach them anything.

I have to say, if that is true, then that is somewhat depressing. I sometimes go back and play the NES Mario games, and I always find it so very nice how they just throw you immediately into the mix without diverting your attention with stories or tutorials or anything, and just let you discover them on your own. I'm well aware, of course, that those games are designed to be easy to learn on their own and that Haven maybe both lacks a bit in that department to begin with, and also arguably needs a bit more handholding owing to its greater complexity, but I absolutely resent the idea that games "should" have extensive and explicit tutorials.

There are several things which I feel need explaining in Haven.

Some examples:
1) How to get out of your boat/cart/knarr/etc.
2) How to manage satiations or even just a small explanation on what satiations even are
3) How to use combat moves (I've seen people try to click the move icons on screen only to end up running backwards, or they try to use the f-keys instead)
4) How to drop combat using peace mode, and an explanation for taming which instructs you to use peace mode before beating up the animal
5) How to preview the placement of lifted items
6) I'm sure there's more

[Jalpha]

It's a good point, but what direction should a player be given starting out? What direction is there?

I don't really have an answer to that. I'm just trying to prevent the devs spending weeks adding animated arrows complete with particle effects and sparkling lighting. It isn't needed. It won't help. It's not the problem.

All I can do is point the finger right back at all of us, the community. The players who love this game whether we're playing or not. There is very little content out there to attract the right kind of gamer. There is absolutely none to convince the wrong kind of gamer that there is still an exciting experience to be had here for them too.

I honestly feel the game is very near a point where there will be little to nothing the devs can do to attract and retain new players on their own.

[loftar]

There are several things which I feel need explaining in Haven.

I don't disagree with that in and of itself. Far less sure how I think it should actually be done in practice, though.

5) How to preview the placement of lifted items

It's funny that you should say that in particular, though, because:

tutorial-1.png

[MagicManICT]

Far less sure how I think it should actually be done in practice, though.

Modern games are designed like slot machines. They're designed so players don't pull their eyes off the game. Players just need to learn to read a freakin' manual instead of relying on lame in-game prompts.

History says, and I'm a part of it, that players don't read the manual, they just start playing. I can tell you that there are only a couple of games I picked the manual up on first--combat flight sims were one of them because they always modeled the aircraft in detail, and you don't know shit for knowing flight and combat systems, even if one aircraft moves similar to others. I think I read the manual for Homeworld before I even installed it because it contained a novella leading up to the game's story. There might be a couple of others, but I doubt it.

That said, some mechanics do need a manual, and if you can provide it in-game in a streamlined manner that doesn't interfere with immersion, then it's better to do so.

[Granger]

People are used to good service and nice tutorials, so they feel almost offended when they see the game does not teach them anything.

I have to say, if that is true, then that is somewhat depressing. I sometimes go back and play the NES Mario games, and I always find it so very nice how they just throw you immediately into the mix without diverting your attention with stories or tutorials or anything, and just let you discover them on your own. I'm well aware, of course, that those games are designed to be easy to learn on their own and that Haven maybe both lacks a bit in that department to begin with, and also arguably needs a bit more handholding owing to its greater complexity, but I absolutely resent the idea that games "should" have extensive and explicit tutorials.

The difference between Mario games and Haven is that the former is controlled through 5-6 buttons (including the directional pad).

When I, as I repeatedly did and likely will have to continue to, voice that the game needs a manual (which dosn't imply that this should include every object in the game or lay it out fully) I'm just requesting a manual for the interface that details any and all types of interactions in terms of the different ways the player can interact with the client to make the character perform stuff - this includes a detailed list of hotkeys and qualifiers and what both do in what circumstances.

While at that I would like to see a cleanup of the interaction modes, modifiers should ideally mean the same thing even under different circumstances, at minimum they shouldn't trigger the exact opposit: For example it isn't intuitive for ctrl-LMB into the world making the character move without dropping something while at the same time ctrl-LMB in an inventory window drops the clicked-on item - should a player have discovered the latter it's unlikely that he'll guess the former (and vice versa).

Also the clusterfuck that is how the chat interacts with the rest of the interface needs a reality check (please get sensible and rip off the way every sane MMO does it: <CR> enters chat / sends when chat is active, <ESC> once terminates chat mode).

Finally the crafting/building menu needs a sane approach.

[pppp]

A set of low tier credos, which can be afforded and finished right after burning into the world would offer place for simple tutorials. At least for me it took a couple days before I could divert 10k LP for a credo and another few before I could start doing it (because of PER*EXP). That is a space for mini-credos which can serve as tutorials and cover wider range of tasks and occupations than current credos, as well as invite to player interactions. (BTW: what about credo cost by tier rather than by amount of credos done ?)

[shubla]

People are used to good service and nice tutorials, so they feel almost offended when they see the game does not teach them anything.

I have to say, if that is true, then that is somewhat depressing. I sometimes go back and play the NES Mario games, and I always find it so very nice how they just throw you immediately into the mix without diverting your attention with stories or tutorials or anything, and just let you discover them on your own. I'm well aware, of course, that those games are designed to be easy to learn on their own and that Haven maybe both lacks a bit in that department to begin with, and also arguably needs a bit more handholding owing to its greater complexity, but I absolutely resent the idea that games "should" have extensive and explicit tutorials.

The difference between Mario games and Haven is that the former is controlled through 5-6 buttons (including the directional pad).

Difference is also that mario games are planned by dozens if not hundreds of very skilled game designers, and HnH is made by two guys from sweden without any proper education on the field!

[Granger]

Difference is also that mario games are planned by dozens if not hundreds of very skilled game designers, and HnH is made by two guys from sweden without any proper education on the field!

That's a bit harsh, given that Super Mario was created by one guy (at a time when the field didn't exist, hence neither could have proper education in it), while we have two.

[Luanes]

About the workstation and most crafts, what do you think about this:

One new section on the skills tab. There will be shown all skills that you've already acquired. When you select/click one of your skills it opens a tutorial about that skill.
Example: Baking.
You open the tutorial (which can be just a tab with text OR one instance of the world) where it explains the basic about the flour, the flour grinding and the oven use. After finishing the tutorial you go back to the normal world where, now, you just have the knowlodge ( as a players ) but you still to have the materials to do.

The tutorial could be a simple video with the basics for every job: Farming, Silkfarming, Cooking, Mining, etc, etc.