H & H Discord?

[Granger]

All this IMHO and ungreen:

I'm going to be blunt here so don't take it as a shit-stirring personal attack, but I still don't understand how you can justify refusing to interact with the major means of communication that the vast majority of your playerbase uses and is literally begging for an official channel for, due to it being "unethical and poorly managed"

Because people have values, each of them a set of their own?

while simultaneously using Paypal of your main (and previously only) means of store payment, and you know, Java in general for the game.

Whataboutism never helps in an argument with intelligent people.

fully embrace ethical FOSS wholesale

How would that work, from your perspective?

[Broomdust]

All this IMHO and ungreen:

I'm going to be blunt here so don't take it as a shit-stirring personal attack, but I still don't understand how you can justify refusing to interact with the major means of communication that the vast majority of your playerbase uses and is literally begging for an official channel for, due to it being "unethical and poorly managed"

Because people have values, each of them a set of their own?

while simultaneously using Paypal of your main (and previously only) means of store payment, and you know, Java in general for the game.

Whataboutism never helps in an argument with intelligent people.

fully embrace ethical FOSS wholesale

How would that work, from your perspective?

It's not even whataboutism, actively developing on one of the most vulnerable platforms on the market behind Flash and directly engaging with a business that's known for some of the shadiest payment handling on the internet means the privacy and security you'd gain from picking a slightly different chat client is effectively meaningless, it's like worrying about finding a bandaid for a scrape on your elbow while ignoring a massive fatal gash on your chest.

Fundamentally fixing HnH would involve rebuilding the entire game from the ground up in another language with professionally vetted security codebases and finding another ethical transaction manager to run the store. Which isn't realistically a good idea, just like refusing to touch Discord isn't. You can talk morals all you want, but for me and I'd wager the majority of people, it just rings hollow and is an annoying strike against Jorbtar.

[loftar]

and is literally begging for an official channel for

Just to make sure that we're on the same page, I'm not intending to make an "official channel" for anything. Even if I'd like to try out Riot, that doesn't make the channel "official".

due to it being "unethical and poorly managed" while simultaneously using Paypal as your main (and previously only) means of store payment, and you know, Java in general for the game.

I don't quite understand the analogy. The reason I avoid Discord is because it's a closed platform, a walled garden. Java is not a closed platform. PayPal is, of course, but any credit card processing platform would be closed, since credit card processing is a closed activity by its very nature. The only option there would seem to be using Bitcoin instead, and forcing everyone to use Bitcoin might be a nice gesture, but also seems a very sure way to virtually eliminate any revenue. Also Xsolla does support Bitcoin payments.

99% of people don't want yet another random chat client

It's quite possible that I don't understand how people use Discord in practice, but I would imagine that the vast majority of people use it through the browser app. If that is true, then I don't really see why having another tab with a Riot channel instead of another tab with a Discord channel would be an imposition.

[Granger]

actively developing on one of the most vulnerable platforms on the market behind Flash

You realize that you clicked away an requester that asked if you want to run the client on your machine (which implies the code running with the privileges of the user starting it). Comparing that to flash (which was advertised as 'secure' in terms of being unable to break out of the browser) is stop listening to that guy level of stupid.
Sorry, have to be blunt about that.

and directly engaging with a business that's known for some of the shadiest payment handling on the internet

You're referring to PayPal (sucks.com), that has been replaced by xsolla (which support basically every payment scheme in existence world wide, sans pawning the soul of your firstborn) a good while back.

Fundamentally fixing HnH would involve rebuilding the entire game from the ground up.

Yeah, right, sure.

[MagicManICT]

Only kicked one person so far and they joined saying something like "is this where all the gays are?"
Not sorry

I just wanted an LGBT-positive gaming group.

Maybe not the best way to introduce such a topic, then?

Live and learn, I guess...

I'm going to be blunt here so don't take it as a shit-stirring personal attack, but I still don't understand how you can justify refusing to interact with the major means of communication that the vast majority of your playerbase uses and is literally begging for an official channel for,

You do know that Discord is just as bad as Facebook, right? I suggest dropping the platform all together and be happy you don't feed such evil concepts as theft of privacy.

[Broomdust]

actively developing on one of the most vulnerable platforms on the market behind Flash

You realize that you clicked away an requester that asked if you want to run the client on your machine (which implies the code running with the privileges of the user starting it). Comparing that to flash (which was advertised as 'secure' in terms of being unable to break out of the browser) is stop listening to that guy level of stupid.
Sorry, have to be blunt about that.

and directly engaging with a business that's known for some of the shadiest payment handling on the internet

You're referring to PayPal (sucks.com), that has been replaced by xsolla (which support basically every payment scheme in existence world wide, sans pawning the soul of your firstborn) a good while back.

Fundamentally fixing HnH would involve rebuilding the entire game from the ground up.

Yeah, right, sure.

It wasn't meant to be a 1:1 comparison, the point being Java has a huge amount of baked in security vulnerabilities to the point that just flat out not using Java is in the general list of best practices to the majority of people who'd also vehemently reject using Discord on principle.

Paypal is still the default payment, it's nice that other options exist now but still not best practice though.

and is literally begging for an official channel for

Just to make sure that we're on the same page, I'm not intending to make an "official channel" for anything. Even if I'd like to try out Riot, that doesn't make the channel "official".

due to it being "unethical and poorly managed" while simultaneously using Paypal as your main (and previously only) means of store payment, and you know, Java in general for the game.

I don't quite understand the analogy. The reason I avoid Discord is because it's a closed platform, a walled garden. Java is not a closed platform. PayPal is, of course, but any credit card processing platform would be closed, since credit card processing is a closed activity by its very nature. The only option there would seem to be using Bitcoin instead, and forcing everyone to use Bitcoin might be a nice gesture, but also seems a very sure way to virtually eliminate any revenue. Also Xsolla does support Bitcoin payments.

99% of people don't want yet another random chat client

It's quite possible that I don't understand how people use Discord in practice, but I would imagine that the vast majority of people use it through the browser app. If that is true, then I don't really see why having another tab with a Riot channel instead of another tab with a Discord channel would be an imposition.

And I'm assuming your reasoning for avoiding a walled garden is adhering to some set of ethical software principles that respects developer and user privacy and security. While I don't know the full scope of what your personal principles entail, most lines of thinking involving that would also disqualify Java and Paypal. Maybe in your eyes, and to a lot of the Haven old guard, your reasoning is perfectly cohesive, but to the world at large it really doesn't gel at all. If you're set on this realistically I probably can't change your mind but if you think you're doing a majority of your potential userbase a favor, you really aren't.

Also while I don't have statistical data on what means people use discord or other chat programs with, I've literally never met someone who uses one primarily via browser, everyone I know that uses discord uses the desktop client and phone app 99% of the time, while maybe hopping on via browser if they don't want to bother starting up the client/are on a public computer.

Only kicked one person so far and they joined saying something like "is this where all the gays are?"
Not sorry

I just wanted an LGBT-positive gaming group.

Maybe not the best way to introduce such a topic, then?

Live and learn, I guess...

I'm going to be blunt here so don't take it as a shit-stirring personal attack, but I still don't understand how you can justify refusing to interact with the major means of communication that the vast majority of your playerbase uses and is literally begging for an official channel for,

You do know that Discord is just as bad as Facebook, right? I suggest dropping the platform all together and be happy you don't feed such evil concepts as theft of privacy.

Wow thanks, I'm cured.

[loftar]

most lines of thinking involving that would also disqualify Java and Paypal

How so? I honestly don't see anything wrong with Java whatsoever (well, in this particular regard at least; as a programming language, I have my reservations). PayPal is a financial institution and so I'm sure there's a ton of issues surrounding it, but I don't know anything that would make it any more egregious than any other financial institution of note.

And I'm assuming your reasoning for avoiding a walled garden is adhering to some set of ethical software principles that respects developer and user privacy and security.

It's really more just that I don't want to wall myself into any garden owned and controlled by others if I can avoid it.

Also while I don't have statistical data on what means people use discord or other chat programs with, I've literally never met someone who uses one primarily via browser, everyone I know that uses discord uses the desktop client and phone app 99% of the time, while maybe hopping on via browser if they don't want to bother starting up the client/are on a public computer.

Thats's surprisingly positive in my eyes. I was more or less assuming that kids these days don't know how to do anything that doesn't involve a browser, so being proven wrong on that makes me happy.

[MagicManICT]

kids these days don't know how to do anything that doesn't involve a browser, so being proven wrong on that makes me happy.

Replace "browser" with "phone app." "Browser" was about 15 years ago.

[Broomdust]

How so? I honestly don't see anything wrong with Java whatsoever. PayPal is a financial institution and so I'm sure there's a ton of issues surrounding it, but I don't know anything that would make it any more egregious than any other financial institution of note.

It's really more just that I don't want to wall myself into any garden owned and controlled by others if I can avoid it.

Thats's surprisingly positive in my eyes. I was more or less assuming that kids these days don't know how to do anything that doesn't involve a browser, so being proven wrong on that makes me happy.

I don't want to be dismissive, but I'm neither an expert on nor have the desire to go on a long rant about Java. If you're somehow not aware of the major issues people take with Java literally just google "criticism of java", "java vulnerabilities", or anything of that nature and start reading. There's a laundry list of issues both current and throughout java's run that it's generally advised against in ethical software touting circles. If you're worried about your privacy and being locked into a company's software in regards to discord, you really should also be worried about actively developing for an extremely vulnerable platform that could also compromise your privacy and liberty by other nefarious actors.

[MagicManICT]

I don't want to be dismissive, but I'm neither an expert on nor have the desire to go on a long rant about Java. If you're somehow not aware of the major issues people take with Java literally just google "criticism of java", "java vulnerabilities", or anything of that nature and start reading.

Have you read the site's documentation and forum history? Loftar has written more than a little bit here about the choices to use Java.

Are you on a crusade against java, or just uninformed about cybersecurity? Known security issues can be shored up via other methods. What are you going to do about that zero day attack some hackers have discovered in Discord?