low 3rd party support

[SnuggleSnail]

lemme throw in my 2 cents. snail brought up the problem of easy fast travel being a problem thats limiting current markets and their wellfare.

It was INSANELY dumb to look at Community Fair, realize it was a core feature of the game that EVERYBODY loved, then destroy it by changing the mechanics that enabled it, but I don't rly think a good solution is to try to recreate it.

If a game dev sees everybody wants a market, and their solution is to try and bait some Tuz-lite into destroying their sanity by wasting hundreds of hours to build/maintain one they're kinda retarded. Maybe the solution... Is for Jorbtar to just make a market. Like, obviously?

But that's the entire problem with the game. I think the decisions/reasoning they make are often bad enough that you can't rly attribute it to normal human error. I'm pretty sure the problem with the game is that they just sorta don't care. Like, they would have to be dumb as a fucking brick to go through the horse combat saga, realize it's dogshit, then implement sleds and not realize they 1:1 have all the same problems but worse. They're not that dumb. They just don't care enough to rly think about it, they're just gonna keep doing random stuff

[jorb]

So... what's the actionable development suggestion?

[SnuggleSnail]

do you have a reason why vanilla client doesn't have a drink hotkey that won't make literally everybody mad at you

[jorb]

None that you would agree with, but I'm not excluding adding it. We talked about it just last week, in fact.

[ItsFunToLose]

None that you would agree with, but I'm not excluding adding it. We talked about it just last week, in fact.

The best developers ignore their playerbase and never interact with them. Taking community suggestions and trying to preferentially implement some of them based on the input of your most efficient newb slayers is a recipe for absolute chaos.

Have a vision and stick to it.

If the autists who want to kill newbs all day are mad because they're too good at killing newbs all day and the playerbase dwindles because they've cultivated a culture of killing newbs all day and then complain about why no one wants to play with them, I really don't see how that's your fault for providing a sandbox. There's a very vocal minority that yell really loud and really often to create the illusion that their opinions carry more weight and are reasonable and justified.

Giving players a space to offer suggestions and discuss game mechanics can often lead to productive insight, but giving them the impression that they have some parasitic influence over the direction of the game is something I have never seen result in positive changes over the long term. Players will often make suggestions that subconsciously or consciously result in benefits to their playstyle. They use wordchoice, diction, inflection, tone, and all manner of linguistic persuasion to memetically infect the game designers with the idea that their playstyle is the preferred playstyle and anything that caters to their playstyle is good and anything that restricts or inhibits their playstyle is evil and wrong and dumb. The narrative is constantly and relentlessly framed, again, subconsciously or consciously, in a way that attempts to steer control of the direction of the game to their beneift.

It's like rock paper scissors, except players who throw rock first make fun of players who throw paper. Endlessly. Until players throw paper less often. So that rock wins more.

TLDR; your players, whether conscious of it, or not, are using language to steer the direction of the game to their benefit. Often to the detriment of others.

You've built something beautiful. Don't interact with us.

PS: A drink button for vanilla would be rad.

[Nightdawg]

The best developers ignore their playerbase and never interact with them.

Then they should also ignore the suggestions made by absolute retards that only bloat the game with more useless/obnoxious mechanics and food recipes, not just the suggestions from players that genuinely want this game to be improved

Fuck off with this double standard bullshit

[jorb]

not just the suggestions from players that genuinely want this game to be improved

Could you take two minutes and write down the top N suggestions you'd like to see? I have no idea what it is you feel I have been ignoring.

[Nightdawg]

not just the suggestions from players that genuinely want this game to be improved

Could you take two minutes and write down the top N suggestions you'd like to see? I have no idea what it is you feel I have been ignoring.

Before you read everything below, just know that I really don't care any more. I cared for enough years, and to be honest I'm surprised snail still cares, since he played for a longer time than I did.

Anyway here we go:
I personally want adjustments to current mechanics. There is so much that needs adjusting. I'm confident you could spend 2 years just adjusting, rather than adding new ones, and the game would be incredibly improved:

- Rolling stat caps (games thrive when they depend on skill, not only gear/stats): viewtopic.php?f=48&t=73790
- The possibility to also mug someone without having to knock them out and give them hard to heal wounds (I literally changed my mind because 90% of the sprucecaps deserve to be hurt in this game): viewtopic.php?f=48&t=72365
- Change quest giver griefability: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=69350
- Remove localized crop growth speed nodes, SIGNIFICANTLY nerf them, or make each batch grow at a random speed. My turnips taking 3 days to grow while some other people's take 1.2 days is not a fun mechanic, especially since I can't tell how fast they'll grow before I'm well settled in one place)
- Remove localized animal quality nodes, and/or nerf them SIGNIFICANTLY. The fact that we can find quality nodes that give +500% quality is SO retarded, especially when it's not random, it's a specific spot on the map.
- More very needed and long overdue custom client features, rather than a million more food recipes: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=69306
> Sidenote: Every single player loved the patches in which you added client features, no matter if they already existed in custom clients or not. Except shubla, but you know damn well that guy's retarded.
- RNG quest objectives need to be reworked for credos. Getting "Experience aids" 50 times, while someone else gets "Uhhhh, look at the sun" and "Uhhh, breathe" 50 times, is simply not fair nor fun. And I'm saying this with the utmost sincerity, I genuinely think you flagged my account to get easier quests because of how often I complained about these quest objectives. I've been getting the easiest possible quests ever for Nomad, Mystic and Cave Hermit in the past 2 worlds, while everyone else was getting absolute cancer objectives.
- Time-dependant tedium needs to be looked at. We're adults, we have jobs and social lives, others also have school. Having to log into this game to refill steel crucibles every 8 hours is just just retarded. People are not allowed to "be good" in this game because they have a life? Imagine being the best at pvp, but not having 50 slaves to grind food and the industry for you (+1 for rolling stat caps). Games thrive when they depend on skill, not only on gear/stats. And before you listen to snail bragging about how he could fight 5 sprucecaps at a time when his stats/gear are half of what they have, he also gets knocked at the start of every single fight when against competent players, so do the math when shitty sprucecaps have one third of our stats/gear quality.
> The only people who benefit from these tedious schedule-defining mechanics like steel crucibles are jobless retards that can play this game 16 hours per day. Don't get me wrong, it's just sad. Even if I had all the time in the world, I wouldn't play this game 16 hours per day lmao.
- NERF WHALES ALREADY, they're the only obnoxiously overpowered source of food. I already PM'd you about this one, like 50% of the playerbase probably.
- NERF TRUFFLES. Some people have quality 50-60 turnips nodes right under their walls. What the actual fuck, do you even understand how overpowered that is? (+1 to quality nodes being retarded). For example, people suggested making them only give extra will.
- Nerf Pepper, or remove Bum-Burn healing potions from alchemy (I already PM'd you about this one)
- Let us eat food only for energy, that doesn't affect Hunger and FEPs

(I can't find all of the posts regarding all of them, because for each good suggestion, there are 50 bad ones, and I can't be arsed to search for diamonds through shit. You had plenty of time to read them when they were at the top of the forums, and didn't even acknowledge most of them.)

This is probably less than 20% of the things that *need* to be adjusted with already existing mechanics, right now.
You guys have the bad habit of not looking back on things you added, and when you do, it's 2 or 3 years later. At this rate, we might have this stuff fixed by the year 2250.

Please don't take this as hate, you've already seen that I support your game as much as I can, and I want it to succeed. I am well aware that you guys do not care about the money, hence why you're not prioritising making the game better over adding more useless food and shit.
I am also confident that you will never shift the direction, whatever that is right now, towards improving all of the current mechanics, and going full-power at it.

Although you have done objectively great improvements to the game multiple times, although not many enough, it could be focused on a great deal more.

I would like to also mention that I played your other awesome game, Salem, for a few weeks. I've seen some interesting mechanics in there, while other mechanics were a million times worse than what we have in hafen. I'm confident that some people who played that game for much longer than me would love to explain what can be taken from that game and be added to hafen, and the entire community would appreciate those improvements as well.

This crap could be discussed for days, if not weeks, with multiple players, that have different skill levels, and do different things in this game. Most of us just gave up. Like 90% of the competent players I've met in this game just gave up, and just play your game during the first 2 months of every wipe for the lulz. In their eyes, your game's just another seasonal thing, nothing "special" about it any more. To some extent, I'm the same. I don't even know why I bother reading the forums and writing stuff like this post for you, when I know the result. It's always the same.

[DDDsDD999]

Rework hunger, the current system is way more tedious than last world. God forbid you have to prevent starving in PVP, your hunger will be fucked. Remember people using hunger reset potions this world, because the system is that trash?

Lower sip amount from 0.05 to 0.01. Makes it so you don't have to carry 10+ waterskins everywhere, and feasting doesn't require as many barrels of drink.

Edit: Basically stop rewarding people for grinding the game 12+ hours a day, and letting them get massive stat advantages over everyone else. It makes others go "oh I need to grind to not get rekt in pvp" and then people get tired of grinding and quit. Make hunger a soft-capping mechanic for people at the high-end, and a catch-up mechanic for people at the low-end.

[Zentetsuken]

Nobody is suggesting anything that hasn't been suggested for the last 5-6 years on a near weekly basis.

We have strayed so far from a development path that could have mitigated problems and balanced issues that there are now years of hurdles in the way that we need to consider backtracking over or just removing entirely.

Combat has developed to a point where there is no reasonable action plan outside of removing it and starting completely fresh.

World generation and content has gone off in so many bizarre and unpolished branches and tangents that we now have multitudes of fluff that does nothing but make the game unreasonably complicated, more imbalanced and worse. (Dungeons, Oceans, Lower cave levels, questing, tokens, hunger, satiations, millions of recipes but only about 20 worth making, etc.)

We've seen entire industries plopped in to the game with very little thought put in to them that ultimately cause further an further imbalances to the point where older industries, credos and content that really needed to be looked at is littered with so many bandaids that there is no longer a reasonable actionable solution to repair them.



Combat needs an entire massive redo, from animal AI to PVP balance, to client quality of life additions.

Credos need an entire massive redo. They are currently just a jumbled pile of empty feeling stat boosts and silly necessities, while others like blacksmith have been bandaided so many times they are just a joke.

Oceans, continents, fast travel and all the content and changes implemented as bandaids to attempt to balance the PVPers vs the 99% needs to be reexamined. So many major changes have been added in to the game in the name of making PVP relevant, from thingwalls to meteors to kingdoms. All are trash. What even are kingdoms anymore? Why are they even in the game? What do they add? There are no reasonable actionable development ideas to fix these. They need to be removed or completely re-imagined.


I would genuinely go so far as to say that it might be worth rolling back development to a much older branch. I'm thinking like years ago, maybe even the advent of 3D Haven. Keep current Haven as a separate branch and let it continue with yearly resets, fix major issues when they come along and leave it as a second legacy branch. The bandaid mountain is too high. It's time to revert back to flat ground and start carving out new hills and chasms with a mixture of your combined new development knowledge from the last however many years it has been since 3d Haven. It's time to consider a new development approach, where you either hire new people, interact with and receive feedback from the community BEFORE and DURING the development of something new, or willingly decide to allot more time to the game that includes a serious effort to interact with it and actually engage in all aspects of the content you develop so you can understand it more deeply.

Develop in a different direction with newer and shinier lenses than before.

Haven does not have to be a grab bag of "the random shit that we had time to throw in to the barrel over the last 2 weeks"

What about endgame? What about longterm goals? What about actual survival? What about PvE? What about fleshing out so many of the ideas you started but have been buried in years of biweekly content dumps?


Asking for us to dump lists of actionable steps on you is dishonest when you have a notepad filled with 10 pages of them already.