Russia invades Ukraine

[Zentetsuken]

I appreciate you trying to add some context to jalphas contemptuous, villainous, simplistic and socially inept ramblings, but I fear that you were adding context where none was meant to be.

While I think it would be difficult for anybody to believe that an invasion could seriously not be provoked by something, I don't think I have seen any citations that could have led anybody to know the true price of the ultimatum that Ukraine received. I also think it's a bit unfair to call an ultimatum a "choice." Ukraine didn't choose to be bombed and have 100s of civilians die and buildings reduced to rubble.

People are quick to dismiss the general media for painting things black and white because there are a lot of political happenings behind the curtain over the last few decades and that is fair. The same caution should be used when describing the "woke" version of events. Was all of this a provocation meant to upset Putin, or was it decades of selfish political and economic decisions, or was it both? Did anybody really know that Putin would all out invade with this level of aggression? Was the decision Ukraine made really as black and white as a "be our neutral bitch buffer zone or be bombed" ?

It seems that a lot of people who are really eager to play the devils advocate only do so until they reach the desired outcome and stop short of telling whole truths themselves.

[Jalpha]

I do not inherently consider Ukraines defiance a bad thing. This is their opportunity to reset after decades of western cultural infiltration and also escape Russian domination. It's the best choice they could have made under the circumstances, perhaps.

I really do resent the bleeding hearts who want me to pay money because Ukraine. I'm not Ukrainian. I never will be. This situation is not my problem.

The west has expanded for decades, not just geographically but also culturally. Russia is pushing back.

WW3 over Ukraine? No fucking thank you.

The sooner this is over and insurgency begins with Russia finally leaving when they can't afford to continue occupancy (like every USA led invasion since WW2) the better for everyone.

I'm really just here to shit up the thread, hehehe.

Thanks for clarifying.

[VDZ]

Did anybody really know that Putin would all out invade with this level of aggression?

Yes? People have been saying Putin might invade Ukraine for months now, especially in January and February Western media were constantly saying it could happen any moment now. If anything, the war has been surprisingly clean, in as far as war can be clean. The Russians could do a lot worse if they only wanted to rule over 600,000 square kilometers of land, but they seem to be trying to capture Ukraine intact. The fact that Russia destroying a maternity hospital (0 deaths) is front page news with multiple articles about it shows how little damage there is for a war between neighboring countries. The last time a war of this scale happened in Eastern Europe things were a lot worse despite less military power being involved.

Was the decision Ukraine made really as black and white as a "be our neutral bitch buffer zone or be bombed" ?

The choice they had was certainly not so black and white. They had some room for negotiation and could almost certainly have forced a certain degree of independence from Russia in exchange for not joining NATO. (They even have nominal ownership of Crimea as a bargaining chip.) Hell, Russia might've even let them join the EU as long as they stay out of NATO. But the decision they made was very much black and white. They went 100% NATO and EU and stopped just short of actually saying 'fuck Russia'. Russia made demands, and Ukraine refused to negotiate, flat-out denying their primary demand without any discussion.

[VDZ]

I do not inherently consider Ukraines defiance a bad thing. This is their opportunity to reset after decades of western cultural infiltration and also escape Russian domination.

Are we talking about the same Ukraine? They're basically begging the West to save them now. If they win this war they'll be under very strong Western influence. They (re-)achieved proper independence from Russia in 2014, and they've only been growing closer to the West since, with this specific situation greatly boosting relations between the West and Ukraine.

The sooner this is over and insurgency begins with Russia finally leaving when they can't afford to continue occupancy (like every USA led invasion since WW2) the better for everyone.

Good, now list the number of territories the Russian Federation has invaded that have since reverted to independence or control of other entities. Russia is not the USA.

[Halbertz]

in exchange for not joining NATO

Nah, it was never about that. There were many years of preparations. And I'm not talking about this "operation" or anything. I'm talking about all that preparations on people minds. NATO, biolabls, nazis - just the excuses for inevitable event. Militarism propaganda, anti-west and revanchist sentiments been promoted by the government since the late 00s.
What really warn me (besides the fact that they will eventually close the borders lol) is how many people are willing to believe the agenda that is being promoted. In the age of information availability, when you can literally call someone in Ukraine and ask "What's going on there?", people continue to believe what they read in the media/reddit. And how easily thought crime laws were passed. We laughed on americans that were cancelled after n-word (that they have wrote 10 years ago). Or brits that don't have hate speech loicense. Now I can be jailed for 3 years after reposting video that my friend from Mykolaiv sent me.
t. Russian citizen

[Jalpha]

Are we talking about the same Ukraine?

Maybe I'm an optimist. I met a couple of Ukrainians recently here on the other side of the continent and they were convinced NATO permitted this conflict if they stopped short of believing they caused it. Small sample size.

We will see how things play out but if Russia fails to integrate Ukraine it will be because Ukraine never needed NATO after all.

Not an expert on Russian conflicts but it seems like they prefer to keep border nations as war-torn hellholes instead of integrating them. Hopefully Ukraine has a better fate on the horizon.

[VDZ]

Not an expert on Russian conflicts but it seems like they prefer to keep border nations as war-torn hellholes instead of integrating them. Hopefully Ukraine has a better fate on the horizon.

Which border nations have they "[kept] as war-torn hellholes"? The only thing that could qualify as that to my knowledge is Eastern Ukraine...which they didn't keep in the state it was in.

[Trappin]

Calling the formal vassal states of both tsarist and Soviet Russia hellholes is probably unfair. And some of those nations are not only former vassals of Russia but also former vassals of the Ottoman empire. Transnistria is a pretty bleak place - and a waystation into Europe for drug and weapons smuggling. Whether or not Russia gets to keep the Ukraine forever and ever will be decided soon enough. And what does Russia do with a wrecked and depopulated Ukraine? All the major cities in the east are in ruin. Who in Russia will want to live there? What could Putin possibly offer to get people to live there? It'll take billions of rubles to bulldoze the ruins and cart away the trash. Ukrainians can't win the war but the notion of not losing it is a distinct possibly.

[WowGain]

1) retards convince themselves that they're actually smarter than everyone else
2) retards believe that since they're smarter than everyone else, their opinions and beliefs can't resemble the thoughts of anyone normal, since then they wouldn't be special and unique
3) retards see near global consensus on the actions of putin being morally reprehensible and indefensible
4) retards side with russia because they are actually very smart and special and unique, so their opinion has to stand out and be unique

[lizardN]

Ukrainians can't win the war but the notion of not losing it is a distinct possibly.

Perhaps you overestimate the combat capability of the Russian army.