Hafen really for niche audience or it not advertise enough?

[vatas]

Adding tutorials/guides that don't jump on player's face but can be accessed easily would be good.

[loftar]

The difference between Mario games and Haven is that the former is controlled through 5-6 buttons (including the directional pad).

When I, as I repeatedly did and likely will have to continue to, voice that the game needs a manual (which dosn't imply that this should include every object in the game or lay it out fully) I'm just requesting a manual for the interface that details any and all types of interactions in terms of the different ways the player can interact with the client to make the character perform stuff - this includes a detailed list of hotkeys and qualifiers and what both do in what circumstances.

Indeed, I think I can say I believe that too. I've considered a couple of time to bring back the "manual" interface we has in Salem. It just sucks a bit to have dual maintenance of these things whenever we want to change or add something.

I mean, on the Mario theme, it's certainly noteworthy that those games did ship with a physical manual which actually contained useful information (especially for the Zelda games).

[Zentetsuken]

The difference between Mario games and Haven is that the former is controlled through 5-6 buttons (including the directional pad).

When I, as I repeatedly did and likely will have to continue to, voice that the game needs a manual (which dosn't imply that this should include every object in the game or lay it out fully) I'm just requesting a manual for the interface that details any and all types of interactions in terms of the different ways the player can interact with the client to make the character perform stuff - this includes a detailed list of hotkeys and qualifiers and what both do in what circumstances.

Indeed, I think I can say I believe that too. I've considered a couple of time to bring back the "manual" interface we has in Salem. It just sucks a bit to have dual maintenance of these things whenever we want to change or add something.

What about a small section in the client menu that just links to a static locked forum page with all the relative manual information?

[loftar]

What about a small section in the client menu that just links to a static locked forum page with all the relative manual information?

I'd vastly prefer Salem's manual system to linking to resources that are external to the client.

[Zentetsuken]

What about a small section in the client menu that just links to a static locked forum page with all the relative manual information?

I'd vastly prefer Salem's manual system to linking to resources that are external to the client.

well ofcourse it would be prettier and nicer to have some integrated ingame manual but if you just link to the forums you can make jorb deal with updating it and then you can work on the client shit later when you have more time

[loftar]

well ofcourse it would be prettier and nicer to have some integrated ingame manual but if you just link to the forums you can make jorb deal with updating it and then you can work on the client shit later when you have more time ;)

Don't worry, I can make Jorb deal with updating it anyway. ^^

It was in fact he who wrote the manual for Salem.

[loftar]

1) How to get out of your boat/cart/knarr/etc.

It just struck me, by the way; is it even possible to leave mounts on a Mac? Isn't Ctrl-clicking mapped to right-clicking in the OS, or am I mistaken. I've never seen anyone mention it.

[Granger]

Setup a repository for the manual, pick a sane markup language and have a make file (or whatever) that spits out a static HTML tree (including resources) and a PDF version. Pull the HTML onto the server so the game client can deep-link into it. KISS.

Then interested users could make pull requests with updates and improvements (just be fair and list the contributors in the credits at the end of the file).

[jordancoles]

5) How to preview the placement of lifted items

It's funny that you should say that in particular, though, because:

tutorial-1.png

Nice

[VDZ]

Guys, Minecraft looks like this:



Up until recently, you had to figure out how to even craft basic objects through trial and error. There is zero explanation on how farming works. Enchanting is entirely unexplained. Even now, the game barely hints at the fact that the Nether even exists, let alone telling you that you should place obsidian in a 4x3 box shape and light a fire inside to get there; this is essential gameplay progression.

Minecraft is the second best selling game of all time.

While I don't think Haven will attract nearly as many players as Minecraft, as long as the gameplay is good there will be plenty of players that stick around, provided the game gets enough exposure. Minecraft got tons and tons of exposure and managed to get tons of players.It's hard to get into (well, I guess not so much anymore now there's freaking multiple Minecraft guides in stores) and it's not for everyone, but the more exposure you get the more people will stick around, even if most players leave. Last week I saw a super-niche online indie game get relaunched on Steam after having been freely available online for many years. (Not front page or anything; just as a hard to find Early Access game.) The game is very hard to get into; most players enter, ask 'how do I do things', try some stuff and leave again. During its pre-Steam years it barely had any players; you'd be lucky to find more than 4 players online at the same time. But the past couple of days there have consistently been 20+ players online almost all the time (I've seen only one moment where only 10 players were online, but that was still more than the most active of pre-Steam moments). If that game can get such an increase in player count from a bit more exposure, I'm pretty sure Haven could see a much more significant increase in player count if just more people knew about it.

People are used to good service and nice tutorials, so they feel almost offended when they see the game does not teach them anything.

I have to say, if that is true, then that is somewhat depressing. I sometimes go back and play the NES Mario games, and I always find it so very nice how they just throw you immediately into the mix without diverting your attention with stories or tutorials or anything, and just let you discover them on your own. I'm well aware, of course, that those games are designed to be easy to learn on their own and that Haven maybe both lacks a bit in that department to begin with, and also arguably needs a bit more handholding owing to its greater complexity, but I absolutely resent the idea that games "should" have extensive and explicit tutorials.

Super Mario Bros. 1-1 is a tutorial. It's a very commonly used example in game design education and discussion because it so wonderfully teaches players how to play without feeling boring. You start on an empty screen with a control pad with four directions and two buttons. Up does nothing; down does nothing (you start as small Mario); B does nothing; A makes the guy on screen jump but doesn't accomplish anything. Going left makes you walk to the edge of the screen and nothing happens when you do that. So you start walking right, and the screen scrolls, revealing more of the level. Then you see a shiny glowing block; it invites you to jump against it, in which case you get rewarded with a sound like you gave a correct answer to a quiz question. Then you continue walking, touch the Goomba and die, teaching you that you should not touch Goombas. You try again, and due to how the level is designed, chances are you bump into a block while trying to jump over the Goomba and squash him, teaching you it's safe to jump on them. Then you jump against the next glowing block, and a mushroom comes out of it! It moves forward away from you, but then hits the pipe and starts coming towards you. You're likely stuck under the blocks, so unless you're fast, it will hit you; but unlike the Goomba, you discover that this mushroom is beneficial. If you jump after that without moving much in-between, you'll hit one of the blocks and unexpectedly destroy it, showing you your new powers as big Mario. And so on, and so forth. Every part of 1-1 is designed to teach you the very basics of platform gaming. So many people were able to get into it because it had such a great tutorial, not despite the lack of tutorial.

When I, as I repeatedly did and likely will have to continue to, voice that the game needs a manual (which dosn't imply that this should include every object in the game or lay it out fully) I'm just requesting a manual for the interface that details any and all types of interactions in terms of the different ways the player can interact with the client to make the character perform stuff - this includes a detailed list of hotkeys and qualifiers and what both do in what circumstances.

I also feel that just having an easily accessible explanation of at least the controls (via a button on the interface and/or hotkey like F1) would do wonders for the playability of the game for newbies.

A set of low tier credos, which can be afforded and finished right after burning into the world would offer place for simple tutorials. At least for me it took a couple days before I could divert 10k LP for a credo and another few before I could start doing it (because of PER*EXP). That is a space for mini-credos which can serve as tutorials and cover wider range of tasks and occupations than current credos, as well as invite to player interactions. (BTW: what about credo cost by tier rather than by amount of credos done ?)

I think there is potential in having a tutorial quest automatically unlock when you learn the relevant skill, particularly if there's a proper reward for completing the 'quest' so it doesn't just feel like a bunch of arbitrary tasks.