GenghisKhan44 wrote: human beings are remarkably stupid
sMartins wrote:Human is not stupid, he's the most beautiful, perfect and glorious creature we know about and the machines we can build will never and ever even remotly come close to his immensity.
sMartins wrote:I'd like to answer also at this question Rexz, in the name of ours ancestors: " Yes, indeed, human is perfect. But let me ask you, how many humans do you see these days?"
Ah, so you are a Pythagorean? "Man is the measure of all things"? There is more truth in that idea than you know. Yet sadly, the last part of your quote is a valid question. The question is why, when there are true rabbits, mice, and cacti, and they seem to have no problems in the state of nature.
Rexz wrote:@GenghisKhann44
Human beings can be very stupid indeed, I'll give you that. But, whenever you think of human stupidity, often time you can relate that stupidity to the nature of the average animal. We are afterall, scientifically part of the biological kingdom Animalia. If we think of some negative human traits that is relevant in our thinking of human stupidity, we surely can attribute those traits to an animal as well. But, I think it would really disgrace the goodness of humanity and human achievements if we were to declare that human beings are remarkably stupid. Humans are great creatures, but they are not perfect, just as nothing is perfect in this world, as abstract as the idea of perfect can be (which is very metaphysical and we can talk forever about that).
When I was speaking to Jalpha, who, it seemed to me, was saying he was not sure of the existence of free will, but certain of instinct. Well, I pulled out stupidity as a certain sign that man is not acting from instinct alone; animals are actually pretty smart. They operate in about the same ways in the state of nature. Only when they are taken out of their normal environments, put together with abnormal conditions or species, injected with abnormal drugs, do they act "stupid". The trouble with humanity is that it's hard to figure out what "normal" is for him. He seems to have an unlimited tendency towards stupidity no matter the environment, the people or animals around him, or any number of other conditions.
I am not saying man is not also a genius. He is the only animal who can actively change his environment in ways that surpass instinct - to excess, one could say. I would say most human genius is directed toward correcting human excesses. Philosophy was a genius pursued by men who saw the mass of men acting stupidly and wanted to avoid that and help others avoid that. Artists want to remind man of his genius and glory, often lost in the humdrum cycle of life. Even technicians and architects make their profession because men's needs for water and shelter far outstrip the caves their forefathers lived in.
Man is both a genius and an idiot. There's no contradiction.
Also I am curious for one thing. You are religious yes? ... Is God perfect as well? To have made imperfect creatures in HIS IMAGE?
And this is where the theologians step in to correct the horrified self-obsession man has with himself. Man sees himself as so ugly he feels the need to lower the divine to his own baseness in order to comfort himself. "Well, if I'm this bad, God can't be so perfect, can he?" It is an emotional argument, not grounded in reason.
That is something I've been thinking and is curious about for a long time, I guess philospohers and theologists has been debating that for millenias, and they don't have the answer, so we will never will, only opinions and speculations.
Either you have not looked, or you have not understood, or you will not understand.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#article3Thomas Aquinas, Summa, PP, Q3, Ob.1 and Reply 1 wrote:Article 3. Whether God exists?
Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.
Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.
In other words, God is something of a gambler. He's betting he can take such a weak, impotent, insane creature as any of us and make us His Equal. And, while I will let Aquinas and other, better writers prove it, I will say if God is infinite, immutable, eternal, omniscient, and omnipotent, I could see how He could permit evil to exist, with the grand strategy of bringing all things to perfection eventually, if I set my resentments and pain aside to just look at what's being done, even as we speak.
Now Aquinas is not light reading. There are commentaries and podcasts out there if you want an explication of the parts of the Summa you find hard to understand. But they can be understood. And they are real answers. They may not always make you feel comfort. But truth, even if it is uncomfortable, brings peace if you seek it and follow it. Aquinas learned it from Aristotle, who learned this from Plato, and him from Socrates. And there are many other men who loved wisdom. Be like them. Look for answers. Ask for the courage to swallow some bitter pills.
by GenghisKhan44 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:11 am 
