Russia invades Ukraine

[VDZ]

you don't believe that things like that can happen in 21 century, me neither.

no, what I meant to imply is this

baby rape story smells like made-up outrage bait. I wouldn't accept claims as severe as that without a reliable source.

or this

the things happening during it that often get reported inaccurately.

The baby rape story is probably false, but it is undoubtedly true that several hundred civilians were murdered and an unknown number of women were raped by Russian soldiers in Bucha. There are also claims of people being tortured, harder to confirm but plausible. This occurred during the time when Western media were crying wolf about every single Russian military action being a war crime, but remained unknown until the city was recaptured in early April.

Unlike Fostik I'm not in disbelief though. The US did similar things in Iraq, if smaller in scale. The Rwandan genocide was only 28 years ago. These things still happen, and will always happen, when you dehumanize the enemy and don't keep your soldiers in check. That's why we need to prosecute those involved and their commanders for war crimes, to discourage any such behavior.

[mvgulik]

...

[Procne]

For some reason this remains a popular thought, but history disagrees. People especially point to the French Revolution as the wonderful start of democracy, and in history class I too was taught to see it in a positive light (...)

I am aware it wasn't pretty and I didn't have the french revolution as the prime example in my mind. Still, it was the time when people started rising against their despots. The fact other countries transitioned peacefully doesn't mean the people didn't have to fight for it. And it continued to 20th century, culminating in the fall of Soviet Union and many countries breaking to freedom.

If anything, the communist revolution likely delayed the transition to democracy, as the country was actually heading in that direction, increasingly preferring proper representation until the communists popularized central leadership and eventually under Stalin a strong cult of personality (the echoes of which can be found in how Putin is perceived in Russia nowadays).

That's interesting

As such, 'just start a revolution' is not a simple solution to transition to democracy.

The thing is - democracy (or whatever other type of government where people aren't just their leader's slaves) won't happen on its own. And it cannot be guaranteed by anyone else. People have to want it and take it. Because if they don't they will turn into North Korea. It might be too late for Russia, though. Or maybe too early

Only two people: Putin and Zelensky. Once they agree on a peace treaty, the war is over. No sooner, no later. All either party has to do is accept the other's demands. The reason why the war is still going on is because Russian negotiators and Ukrainian negotiators can't come to an agreement. Theoretically you could try replacing either of the two leaders with someone else, but that has a significant chance of only further delaying a peace treaty.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Didn't mean this specific case of Ukrainian war, but the leadership / government in general. The fact that at the helm of Russia is a guy willing to go to a war of this kind and order all the things that russian army is doing right now. And who is ready to murder / imprison anyone disagreeing with him, who isolates his country and media from the rest of the world.

As for the peace treaty - I don't like how you put the responsibility on negotiators when it was Russian who invaded Ukraine in the first place. Smells a bit like blaming a victim for resisting. Sure, all wars would end with much less casualties if the attacked side simply laid down their weapons and surrendered. We can as well blame the orange revolution or the maidan revolution - without those Ukraine would have been Russia's puppet by now and Putin wouldn't have to invade it.

[mvgulik]

...

[VDZ]

Sure, all wars would end with much less casualties if the attacked side simply laid down their weapons and surrendered.

But it's true. The war continues because the Ukrainian government considers the concessions Russia demands to be more important than peace. Peaceful and semi-peaceful annexations have happened often enough in the past. (Hell, even in Ukraine, the annexation of Crimea was mostly bloodless, with only 3 combat deaths and 3 civilian deaths.)

As for the peace treaty - I don't like how you put the responsibility on negotiators when it was Russian who invaded Ukraine in the first place. Smells a bit like blaming a victim for resisting.

Again, it's simply true. You may consider it morally unjust, but until both parties convince each other to withdraw, adjust or yield to demands and come to an agreement, the suffering continues. This is something that requires action from both Russian negotiators and Ukrainian negotiators. And practically speaking, Russia simply isn't going to just withdraw its demands and fuck off like people want.

We can as well blame the orange revolution or the maidan revolution - without those Ukraine would have been Russia's puppet by now and Putin wouldn't have to invade it.

Well, yes? That's where this whole mess started. Russia has been at war with Ukraine (in the easternmost part) since immediately after the Maidan Revolution. The Maidan Revolution's consequences snowballed, eventually even leading into Ukraine enshrining the intent for NATO membership in its constitution, and Ukraine's increasing moving away from Russia towards Western powers brought Russia to perform a full-scale invasion. If they had remained Russia's puppet, none of this would have happened. Is it just? Probably not. But that's the practical reality of things.

I am aware it wasn't pretty and I didn't have the french revolution as the prime example in my mind. Still, it was the time when people started rising against their despots. The fact other countries transitioned peacefully doesn't mean the people didn't have to fight for it. And it continued to 20th century, culminating in the fall of Soviet Union and many countries breaking to freedom.

The thing is - democracy (or whatever other type of government where people aren't just their leader's slaves) won't happen on its own. And it cannot be guaranteed by anyone else. People have to want it and take it. Because if they don't they will turn into North Korea. It might be too late for Russia, though. Or maybe too early

You're missing my point. Democracy cannot be forced through radical change, especially not simply replacing the government by force. Pressure must be kept up to develop it gradually, increasingly getting more and more concessions from the existing government. This also means the government will remain mostly as-is during this process, as the concessions are made by the government in exchange for staying in power. Removing the leader is unlikely to advance the move to democracy. (In Putin's case it might help as he's in a very stable position and it'll likely be easier to get concessions from a less stable leader. But then again, that also makes him harder to dethrone - and if you've destabilized him enough to dethrone him you can instead just start extracting concessions...)

[WowGain]

Sure, all wars would end with much less casualties if the attacked side simply laid down their weapons and surrendered.

But it's true. The war continues because the Ukrainian government considers the concessions Russia demands to be more important than peace. Peaceful and semi-peaceful annexations have happened often enough in the past. (Hell, even in Ukraine, the annexation of Crimea was mostly bloodless, with only 3 combat deaths and 3 civilian deaths.)

As for the peace treaty - I don't like how you put the responsibility on negotiators when it was Russian who invaded Ukraine in the first place. Smells a bit like blaming a victim for resisting.

Again, it's simply true. You may consider it morally unjust, but until both parties convince each other to withdraw, adjust or yield to demands and come to an agreement, the suffering continues. This is something that requires action from both Russian negotiators and Ukrainian negotiators. And practically speaking, Russia simply isn't going to just withdraw its demands and fuck off like people want.

We can as well blame the orange revolution or the maidan revolution - without those Ukraine would have been Russia's puppet by now and Putin wouldn't have to invade it.

Well, yes? That's where this whole mess started. Russia has been at war with Ukraine (in the easternmost part) since immediately after the Maidan Revolution. The Maidan Revolution's consequences snowballed, eventually even leading into Ukraine enshrining the intent for NATO membership in its constitution, and Ukraine's increasing moving away from Russia towards Western powers brought Russia to perform a full-scale invasion. If they had remained Russia's puppet, none of this would have happened. Is it just? Probably not. But that's the practical reality of things.

I am aware it wasn't pretty and I didn't have the french revolution as the prime example in my mind. Still, it was the time when people started rising against their despots. The fact other countries transitioned peacefully doesn't mean the people didn't have to fight for it. And it continued to 20th century, culminating in the fall of Soviet Union and many countries breaking to freedom.

The thing is - democracy (or whatever other type of government where people aren't just their leader's slaves) won't happen on its own. And it cannot be guaranteed by anyone else. People have to want it and take it. Because if they don't they will turn into North Korea. It might be too late for Russia, though. Or maybe too early

You're missing my point. Democracy cannot be forced through radical change, especially not simply replacing the government by force. Pressure must be kept up to develop it gradually, increasingly getting more and more concessions from the existing government. This also means the government will remain mostly as-is during this process, as the concessions are made by the government in exchange for staying in power. Removing the leader is unlikely to advance the move to democracy. (In Putin's case it might help as he's in a very stable position and it'll likely be easier to get concessions from a less stable leader. But then again, that also makes him harder to dethrone - and if you've destabilized him enough to dethrone him you can instead just start extracting concessions...)

christ youre digusting

[Procne]

But it's true. The war continues because the Ukrainian government considers the concessions Russia demands to be more important than peace. Peaceful and semi-peaceful annexations have happened often enough in the past. (Hell, even in Ukraine, the annexation of Crimea was mostly bloodless, with only 3 combat deaths and 3 civilian deaths.)
You may consider it morally unjust, but until both parties convince each other to withdraw, adjust or yield to demands and come to an agreement, the suffering continues. This is something that requires action from both Russian negotiators and Ukrainian negotiators. And practically speaking, Russia simply isn't going to just withdraw its demands and fuck off like people want.

I'm sorry, but this kind of attitude is what allows Russia to continue their practices. They're basically your regular school bully. You propose to just give up, do nothing and accept receiving regular beating and paying off with your lunch money, because if you would resist he might beat you harder?

Well, yes? That's where this whole mess started. Russia has been at war with Ukraine (in the easternmost part) since immediately after the Maidan Revolution. The Maidan Revolution's consequences snowballed, eventually even leading into Ukraine enshrining the intent for NATO membership in its constitution, and Ukraine's increasing moving away from Russia towards Western powers brought Russia to perform a full-scale invasion. If they had remained Russia's puppet, none of this would have happened. Is it just? Probably not. But that's the practical reality of things.

While that was an immediate cause, I used a word "blame". And I strongly disagree with putting a blame on Ukraine for wanting to free itself from Russia. It's their country and their decision. The decision to start a war and kill civilian population was made by Russia, at Maidan as well, and the blame lies with Russia.

You're missing my point. Democracy cannot be forced through radical change, especially not simply replacing the government by force. Pressure must be kept up to develop it gradually, increasingly getting more and more concessions from the existing government. This also means the government will remain mostly as-is during this process, as the concessions are made by the government in exchange for staying in power. Removing the leader is unlikely to advance the move to democracy. (In Putin's case it might help as he's in a very stable position and it'll likely be easier to get concessions from a less stable leader. But then again, that also makes him harder to dethrone - and if you've destabilized him enough to dethrone him you can instead just start extracting concessions...)

The concessions you talk about happen because people were pushing for them - the pressure you mentioned. Because the government was afraid of popular revolution and its results, or was otherwise forced.
Sometimes it does require radical change, when the government is too strong. As it is in Russia or North Korea - changes will not happen gradually, because the government is pressing too hard, and the population is posing no threat to it. Therefore the government does not have to make any concessions. The people will have to force it, will have to show the government they can be a threat. Which would probably be very bloody. But thanks to technology, and the increasing power gap between government and population - it might already be impossible, if the government would rather eradicate majority of its population rather than give up anything. Other than that the only other possible scenario I see is if the government grows even more complacent, corrupt and inefficientuntil it falls apart. But at that point, if the population has not pushed for democratic changes then more probable scenario is that someone else takes over. Like Putin took over after his predecessors.

And no, I don't think removing Putin will change anything. Not unless people pushing for democracy do it. Otherwise Putin v2 will be chosen / take over again.

[mvgulik]

...

[ATHF]

Hello from Ukraine. Russia attacked first.

Woke up to air strike at 24th feb on 4 of morning. They want us dead just because they are fucked ppl. Bucha is true. Baby rapist is true to the degree, some degree of evidence is present. Rape stories are true. They took Kherson hostage. They want city to give up and "join the Russia" like they did with Crimea and so on. basically legitimized tearing Ukraine part by part, like with Donbass etc.

Russian soldiers raid, steal, plunder, take hostages, use Zarin, phosphor, thermobaric bombs (vacuum bombs) use Solntsepek missiles which is basically a non-radioactive nuke that bakes you inside out at 800 C. Highly illegal, but who cares? They steal toilets, yes. They also die fast. Plenty of photos of russian soldiers torn apart by air strikes. They burn good, they scream well, they plead their mommies like a true pussies. You don't want to know the scale of this. Each of you reading this, jerking off to ponies and whining about your poor lives should understand that each second of your peace bought by Ukrainian blood. Each. We are the crossroad between Elves and Murloks. Literally.

Russians themselves do nothing about it. They whine about rusophobia, spotify ban, prices and war being bad. Their maximum is admitting "there is a conflict" because they would be jailed for 15 years of prison for speaking truth. Not even a single shithead said anything before Belgrad were bombed the fuck out. They are pussy nation. They did nothing to Putin for 20 years. They did 0 shit to stop the war. They do nothing to prevent this. They won't do anything to stop it. They don't and won't help us. Each and every russian is to blame for death of my people. They blindly let Putin do it. They pay taxes, taxes are used to fuel the war machine. Russia attacked bc they are bloody imperialists with pussy attitude. That's it. Official reason is "demilitarisaion and denacification". There are no nazi in Ukraine, aside from shitheads from Lvov, but that's our trouble.

If they had remained Russia's puppet, none of this would have happened

Whoever talks shit about Ukraine provoking Russia with Maidan, Ukraine remaining the Russia puppet, etc should eat shit and kill yourself. VDZ stop being a fucking disgrace to humanity man, do us a favor and kill yourself. Do it the old fashion style - jump outta fucking window. You know zero shit about being near to russia, you know next to nothing why Ukraine choose to leave the fucking treaty with russia. You are just it - a disgrace, so shut the fuck up about it. Not your country, not your right to speak of it, pack your shit and leave.

We overthrew our goverment bc they signed the wrong paper and we didn't like it. We had every right to do so. 500k ppl rioted the fuck out of the government. Russians did nothing when Putin rigged elections 4 times in a row. What they did when their government killed every free journalist, media, etc? Nothing. They don't give a fuck about their own country. They did nothing when Putin's regime made so that 100 km from Moskow ppl shit in windows. Russian soldiers are shocked to the bone by our villages having gas, electricity, asphalt roads, internet etc because they themselves are from Syberia and other shithole regions of this shithole country where they live long past the poverty line. We aren't superior, live better or whatever. We just work our asses ultra hard while russians get drunk the fuck out.

Oh, and my fav part. Russian Constitution, article 3, part 1 - the only power comes from ppl and deputies are representatives of ppl's will. We have same one, that's why we had our right to tame our government.

Whoever speaks about "ukraine dosen't want peace and considers war better option", again, VDZ, should also end their life at sign of such stupidity. because, again, Russia isn't a country, it's a Mordor. You don't ally with Mordor, you don't talk to them, you don't befriend them. It is a Mordor. They want you dead. There is no "be friends" option at this point. They want your shit, they want you dead, there is no "diplomacy" with murderers - you can't do it. They want you dead in every scenario. This isn't a civilized ppl but glorified shitheads from Imperialist era. In every scenario being "friends" with Russia we will end up with their fucked laws like being unable to even get together on the squares, post what you think, freely speak of your shit on public. They have fucking mind police, m8. Ppl were literally arrested for reposts long before invading Ukraine. Their own social network - the Vkontakte - are monitored by FSB agents all the time, ppl can get swatted for wrong words. I ain't want that shit in my home. Nothing of it. Not a single bit.

What russians do to change it? Nothing and drink it with vodka all the way down the throat.

will there be drama between Russians and Ukrainians in game?

man, shove it. you literally started this just to stir some shitposts outta forum. you don't give a shit about Ukrainians dying so you can sleep tight without russia breathing next to your face. no. there will be no drama, because whole Ukraine is under threat of receiving the fucking missile to the home. ppl now flee just to save themselves from death, man. ppl ain't gotta have time shitting on russians online. they deal with it by themselves pretty good. yeah, shit stabilized for most part, but we still have shit like Mariupol. Whole city is obliterated, burned to the crisp.

If they had remained Russia's puppet, none of this would have happened

You know what Russian soldiers did to those who survived? They proposed help and rations. When ppl opened doors to get food soldiers gave it to them, and then threw a fucking grenade in.

here's Maryupol recent photos.
https://static.dw.com/image/61243917_303.jpg
https://static.dw.com/image/61232031_303.jpg
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/de1fc270 ... 2301f75dfd
https://images.wsj.net/im-506938/SQUARE
https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/up ... =770%2C513
Look at it, VDZ, look fucking carefully - this is what you get for living the way Russians don't want you to. Do you still want to be their puppet, fucker? do you still want to put your ass up and plead the Russian to take over your body and rape you? is this what you dream of? look at each and every photo, weeb, this is real life happening while you jerk off in some basement.

I genuinely hate russians. They are the reason I have PTSD now. They are the reason my nation got slaughtered. Again. In the what was it? 10th? 11th time? Our language got forbidden like 190ish times, USSR used to repress Ukrainians at full blown scale. Don't buy their shit on "no war", "Ukrainians started first", "they are too rusophobic" etc. they do nothing, they did nothing, they would shittalk you into believing that Ukraine started this and they don't have to answer for anything. They just can't let us live the way we want and that's it. There is no bigger reason for this, no NATO-RUSSIA war, no USA FORCING RUSSIA. There is literally 0 reason ppl in Ukraine now die from Russian hands.

Won't drop any fucking "evidence" to russians. Google or GTFO. Oh, wait, they can't bc Russians are now banned from every major social media, search engine, etc etc.

As Dudaev put it in his speech at 1995 - don't mess with Ukrainians. Because when we get our shit back living will envy the dead.

[MightySheep]

Russians themselves do nothing about it. They whine about rusophobia, spotify ban, prices and war being bad. Their maximum is admitting "there is a conflict" because they would be jailed for 15 years of prison for speaking truth. Not even a single shithead said anything before Belgrad were bombed the fuck out. They are pussy nation. They did nothing to Putin for 20 years. They did 0 shit to stop the war. They do nothing to prevent this. They won't do anything to stop it. They don't and won't help us. Each and every russian is to blame for death of my people. They blindly let Putin do it. They pay taxes, taxes are used to fuel the war machine. Russia attacked bc they are bloody imperialists with pussy attitude.

Thats been my take from day 1. I got downvoted to shit for saying it. The "Russians are equally as much victims of Putin" is literally no different from saying "Nazis were just as much victims of Hitler". Its the Russian people who give Putin his power. All the Russian cucks who claim to be anti Putin will get drafted and obey their orders like everyone else. At what point does personal accountability come into it when youre literally invading a country and killing people? I swear the popular opinion that I see online is 'never' its always Putins fault. It's such a dumb opinion. Whether they like it or not, Putin represents and leads them therefore they are accountable and deserve every shit they get.