Permanent death (good or bad)

[SarcasticSoul]

I'll preface this by saying that I am firmly of the belief that removing permadeath from this game would be to rip out the heart and soul of it. When you play this game as a hermit or a small group of people (or arguably, in some cases, even a thriving village) achieving things in this game -means- something. If you could just get everything back after a death, it would be trivialized.

I'll echo the opinion that the PvP mongering is the driving problem behind the current system. The persistent wounds, ability to engage in combat on your own claim without skills to do so, these are good starts to deterring random slaughter and griefing, but ultimately it isn't enough. As a fairly casual player who plays with fairly casual players, I've seen the level of insane progress speed people are capable of in this game. I don't honestly think you can effectively penalize or deter griefers enough to help without making it incredibly unfair. If we weren't meant to murder each other, the option wouldn't exist in the game.

Instead of penalizing griefers, I think the better solution is to aid crafters and casuals. Right now, the system favors fighters. Kill a village, get their shit. Don't bother with fighting, you're going to die and lose it all.

What about a karma system, then?

Given that we can now engage others in combat on our own claims without the required skills, there is almost literally no reason to buy skills like Rage or Murder unless you plan to use them. So what if players who live like saints are rewarded in the afterlife, while players who live like Huns are rewarded on the mortal coil? It seems obvious to me that people who murder others and raid villages have plenty of benefits associated with their life choices. They feel braver outside their walls because they can fight, they can pillage and steal like raiding barbarians, they can have the warmongering they want. Non-combat hearthlings enjoy the benefits of crafting, creating, and enjoying a simpler life of creating high quality goods. Either can be taken away in an instant, but the non-combatants are undeniably at a massive advantage. So how about something like this:

Hearthlings begin with a pure karma score. This is a hidden value that the player is aware of only by mention, and has no visible representation. Hearthlings can live their entire existences and never lose a karma point if they so choose, but they can permanently lose karma if they decide to live on the edge. Purchasing skills like Rage, Theft and Tresspassing, committing acts of murder, assault, theft or trespassing, any action that breaches the hearthlaw causes the hearthling to lose karma. When a hearthling with no karma dies, their ancestor gets nothing save for presumably the leftover spoils of Attila Senior. Meanwhile, hearthlings with positive karma scores lend a percentage (albeit a reasonably low percentage) of their accumulated LP to their ancestor. The higher your karma, the better off your ancestor will be.

Having brought up the permadeath/inheritance topic before, I've read the responses and decided that I agree with the assessment that legacy was far too forgiving for death in terms of LP inherited. But what I've seen follow that point over and over is "it made warriors/griefers too strong because they could die and come back with almost everything."

Why should warriors come back with everything? They take things from others for a living. They presumably have a throne built of the skulls of their victims, pillaged goods from raided settlements, back-up plans and alts because really who does pvp in a permadeath game unless they're sure they've got less at stake than their victim?

Good little hearthlings who never did nobody no harm don't have a skull throne to leave their children. They have ashes and tears and nothing to show for the innocent lives they led.

Thoughts?

[DDDsDD999]

Why should warriors come back with everything? They take things from others for a living. They presumably have a throne built of the skulls of their victims, pillaged goods from raided settlements, back-up plans and alts because really who does pvp in a permadeath game unless they're sure they've got less at stake than their victim?

Because the victims didn't put in time to enforce their defences. Pretty much any example of raiding could have been prevented, short of bug abuse.

No thanks.

[SarcasticSoul]

Why should warriors come back with everything? They take things from others for a living. They presumably have a throne built of the skulls of their victims, pillaged goods from raided settlements, back-up plans and alts because really who does pvp in a permadeath game unless they're sure they've got less at stake than their victim?

Because the victims didn't put in time to enforce their defences. Pretty much any example of raiding could have been prevented, short of bug abuse.

No thanks.

It isn't always a matter of people not putting in the time. Some people don't have the time. Some people have defenses, but they aren't enough. Some people don't have time to get a brick wall before their palisades are breached and their characters are slaughtered.

Also, in that case, the raiders still gain everything and the murdered people get nothing. With the system I proposed, the raider gets to walk away with whatever they want, bones for the bone throne, whatever, but the dead people don't get 100% erased just for not advancing fast enough. In that case you have to ask yourself: "Why do I care if the little slowpoke craftsmen get some points back? I got everything else they had, I have the glorious murder-tales to tell, I sated my blood thirst. It just means they'll crop up somewhere else and I can do it again."

Just because raids can be prevented, it doesn't make the system a bad idea.

[SarcasticSoul]

It's a matter of choice.

You make a choice in this game. You're either going to be the type of player who sits behind a wall studying bugs and flowers and making nice things, or you're going to be the type who kills the former type because FUCK FLOWERS, YOU PANSY.

People who work for their living legally are rewarded.

People who rob banks are rewarded a lot quicker, but with a risk of losing everything.

Except in this scenario it's like the bank robber's kids get the nice things their bank-robbing forefather's money bought.

[overtyped]

It good.

[NaoWhut]

It good.

[banok]

LP refunds on death were strictly bad for the game. You weren't really getting back 25% of your lp from a death due to how costs scaled it was closer to 5% of your lp. Effectively nothing. If you weren't full change and full peaceful on your character then you were going to fall so far behind everyone else that you guaranteed your death. Ultimately what it lead to were griefers and raiders who were already geared towards combat coming back from deaths faster (immediately for awhile when it was a 100% refund) while hermits, small villages, and crafters lost everything.

While I agree the tradition slider wasnt balanced and is good to be gone. even that 5% LP was important, because right now I have alts im not even going to do anything but study boar tusks, and 300% food in prep for when I die (this also saves me future gamelogintime). if there was even 5% LP inheritance I wouldnt need as many alts as I currently use.

I like the idea of complete permadeath but imo its a bad idea in such a grindy game. I simply don't think HnH population will grow because of it. Obviously don't think like HnH should become completely casul, but if they want it to be sucessful I think JLo need to do some sort of compromise. Up to them tho, it's their baby.

I don't think ancestral worship is the answer either. but who knows many it will be completely different.

PS: love idea that darkfall players who prob think they are HC got raped, hopefully wasnt even a bear.

[Jeff]

Rather than permadeath itself, the problem is that there are a ton of people that kill other players just for shit and giggles. Mostly because there is no actual consequence in doing so, especially due to alts.
Imho, the action of murdering in cold blood should be a grave one, one that shouldn't be taken lightly. Giving harsh penalties to a character for murdering someone could be a way of doing so, reduced if it was done in self-defense or to avenge someone (aka: you've got scents) maybe, but still serious penalties.
And to mirror the crafting skill trees, there could be then skills with high costs to reduce those penalities (making them less harsh, but still relatively heavy).

I'll put out there some crazy idea: permanent Psyche damage/reduction for killing people; once psyche is reduced to 0, the murderer goes batshit insane, turning into some kind of npc that just runs and attacks everyone until his death - be it due of starvation or damage received; of course, killing a mad person would have to give no penalties, as he's essentially an npc at this point.

[Tonkyhonk]

Well, since so much of the old forum got scrambled and minced, there's nothing wrong with one thread on the subject.

but yeah, anyone that has forum warriored here for long enough has seen this come up at least once a year since I started playing if not before.

but i think the situation changed and some discussion isnt bad. in legacy, we could inherit some lp, we could bank lp in claim, and it was pretty easy to earn lp and gain stats. that was criticized and now with the new system it isnt so much. if you were an advanced farmer in current haven, itll take a lot longer time to be able to farm again or youd ruin your crops. the fact that a lot of people "recommend" or "suggest" to work on multiple alts to play this game because its perma-death sounds kinda like defeats the purpose of this game to stay permadeath, imo. also, the original intention of prayer wasnt too bad either.

[Mikeyboy]

> op makes 300 roads going to places crawling with murder scents
> op can't figure out why game got hard all the sudden