REVIEW: Game Has Potential, But Snail Is A Psychopath

[Zentetsuken]

the services thread is the perfect opportunity for divine punishment, its trading scarce old playerbase for store items, straight up

devs could get creative with a "Divine Plague", the offending account would be plagued by negative stats, random wounds and can't wear or use anything

Yeah, I think they have plenty of reasons to do it if they want to. He has maybe posted some stuff in C&I but there is overwhelming amount of evidence to allow devs to do stuff.

Evidence of what exactly? Offering to raid people for payment? Not against the rules. Attacking people? Not against the rules (you have also done this). Killing people? Not against the rules (you have also done this).

But last i knew, blackmail and plagiarism are actual crimes.

It is quite funny that shubla, an often-curfewed, notorious rule-breaker and envelope pusher has been the loudest proponent for Snail's punishment.
It's no secret that this only started after Snail destroyed his base as well.
If he wasn't getting so obviously defensive about it I'd brush it off as one of his endless shitposting attempts, but he seems to be incredibly invested in it.
A very strange shift in behaviour.

[cherryquartz]

It is quite funny that shubla, an often-curfewed, notorious rule-breaker and envelope pusher has been the loudest proponent for Snail's punishment.
It's no secret that this only started after Snail destroyed his base as well.
If he wasn't getting so obviously defensive about it I'd brush it off as one of his endless shitposting attempts, but he seems to be incredibly invested in it.
A very strange shift in behaviour.

He lacks the emotional maturity to acknowledge his own bad behaviour, he's like a toddler that has been caught raiding his mothers makeup drawer, he's covered in lipstick but still denies he has been in the makeup drawer. He will never grow out of his craving for attention and acceptance until he realises that HE causes most of his own issues with his behaviour.

[Exerosp]

Threatening grief if not paid with real life money is a big yikes to me. What next, people will start selling marijuana irl for tokens? Next thing we know the game will be taken down just like Funimation did to Byond over copyright laws.

Sure when it's affecting you the best thing to do is to just not do it, but as a bystander I can't help but say yikes that Snail isn't being banned for it haha.

[shubla]

Sure when it's affecting you the best thing to do is to just not do it, but as a bystander I can't help but say yikes that Snail isn't being banned for it haha.

Why ban 1 person when you can get rid of 500 other players instead!

[Zentetsuken]

Threatening grief if not paid with real life money is a big yikes to me.

Who did this?
Where is the proof?
Do you have any proof that threatening people with grief if demands are not met has not been a part of this game for 10 years?
Why do you feel that being threatened in a game with territory and resource claiming, pvp, permadeath is a yikes?
Maybe this is not the type of game for you?

Why ban 1 person when you can get rid of 500 other players instead!

What next, people will start selling marijuana irl for tokens? Next thing we know the game will be taken down just like Funimation did to Byond over copyright laws.

Look at the silly exaggerated extremes that people must go to to try and justify their stance on this subject.

The fact of the matter is, the #1 supporter of this movement, shubla, has publicly demonstrated behaviour that was way more worthy of a ban and bagged about it in his very own forum post. He thought he was a hero for blackmailing the devs and he bragged about creating gamebreaking bots, stealing other people's work and charging for it, and everything else that the whole community looks down at him for.

Everything shubla has said about Snail is heresay. No proof, just the whiny pleas of a guy who has his jimmies rustled by a more dedicated player who broke in to his base.

[MagicManICT]

'pre-PS:' sorry for the 'wall of text'

Next thing we know the game will be taken down just like Funimation did to Byond over copyright laws.

They got a Cease and Desist notice over the use of copyrighted/trademarked material. My understanding is they removed it, so no actual damages were awarded, etc. Whether you think it was the death of the site or not is your opinion, but that I'm aware, it still runs.

blackmail and plagiarism are actual crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmail Maybe you're thinking of Extortion.

From what I see on the forums, the demand is for hats, tokens, or an equivalent value. I don't manage the Discord channels, and I don't have access to what goes on in game unless I'm actually in the game and present to a conversation.

Nothing what I have seen gone on even borders on the illegal, at least from the legal precedents I've read (note: I'm not a lawyer, but court news as it relates to online gaming has been a bit of a hobby over the years. I could have missed something. If so, share please and thanks!) Do you make the mistake of thinking that a digital good, one that is owned by Seatribe and can be destroyed at their will at any time, has a real value of any sort? There is some market value there as some people desire some things more than other people do, and such trading has been allowed to occur on the side. That doesn't mean they have actual value in a court, and that's where this whole argument concludes.

As long as digital goods and services are controlled by a single entity (corporation, etc) that can be terminated at the will of its owners/controllers, there can never be any real value for digital goods. The simple way to put it is that you don't have the means to maintain any value for your good outside of the server space created by the company, so all your doing is leasing a few bits. If the game gets shut down for any reason, the company that runs the game owes you nothing.

So far only two companies have tried to break this mold--the folks that run Second Life and those that run Project Entropia. The first has allowed digital transfer of goods in the same legal means as real estate transactions. The latter has a real world translation of in game currency to real world currency at a value of 10:1 if memory serves. I'd love to see others try ways to break these paradigms, but it doesn't solve the real legal issues of how a small company that has to shut down servers (bankruptcy, death of the owner, etc) resolve financial matters. Until that has a legal solution that is fair and equitable to all parties, a goose egg will continue to have more value than digital goods. I'd love the day when there is a legal precedent on such matters that gives digital goods an actual value, but until that paradigm shift, we have to work with what we have.

In conclusion, can you call what is going on right now extortion? Yep. Still fits the definition. Can you call it illegal? Nope. As argued, there is no real world value for the goods being extorted, so therefore cannot be illegal. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. It's an open world game where people can behave in a wide variety of manners due to a very, very lose "fair play" policy. But who's responsible for enforcing 'fair' in an open world game? Who has been empowered to enforce fair in a open world game? "You."

As far as the review, I consider it a fair opinion. The person tried the game, liked parts, didn't like other parts. That everyone has gotten caught up on shubla and snail's actions the last few pages are just disgraceful. I just have three words: 'hook,' 'line,' and 'sinker.' (As in the fisherman metaphor "he just swallowed that bait hook, line, and sinker.")

FWIW: jorb and loftar are aware of the matter.

[MagicManICT]

Sorry for a double post, but I just gotta say, outside of my moderator role:

Several people for quite some time have been complaining about the lack of drama on these forums. Someone steps up to be the bad guy, and all we get are folks whining about the lack of 'fair play.'

[Zentetsuken]

Sorry for a double post, but I just gotta say, outside of my moderator role:

Several people for quite some time have been complaining about the lack of drama on these forums. Someone steps up to be the bad guy, and all we get are folks whining about the lack of 'fair play.'

This might be the most agreeable post you've made in the last few years.

[cherryquartz]

'pre-PS:' sorry for the 'wall of text'

Next thing we know the game will be taken down just like Funimation did to Byond over copyright laws.

They got a Cease and Desist notice over the use of copyrighted/trademarked material. My understanding is they removed it, so no actual damages were awarded, etc. Whether you think it was the death of the site or not is your opinion, but that I'm aware, it still runs.

blackmail and plagiarism are actual crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmail Maybe you're thinking of Extortion.

From what I see on the forums, the demand is for hats, tokens, or an equivalent value. I don't manage the Discord channels, and I don't have access to what goes on in game unless I'm actually in the game and present to a conversation.

Nothing what I have seen gone on even borders on the illegal, at least from the legal precedents I've read (note: I'm not a lawyer, but court news as it relates to online gaming has been a bit of a hobby over the years. I could have missed something. If so, share please and thanks!) Do you make the mistake of thinking that a digital good, one that is owned by Seatribe and can be destroyed at their will at any time, has a real value of any sort? There is some market value there as some people desire some things more than other people do, and such trading has been allowed to occur on the side. That doesn't mean they have actual value in a court, and that's where this whole argument concludes.

As long as digital goods and services are controlled by a single entity (corporation, etc) that can be terminated at the will of its owners/controllers, there can never be any real value for digital goods. The simple way to put it is that you don't have the means to maintain any value for your good outside of the server space created by the company, so all your doing is leasing a few bits. If the game gets shut down for any reason, the company that runs the game owes you nothing.

So far only two companies have tried to break this mold--the folks that run Second Life and those that run Project Entropia. The first has allowed digital transfer of goods in the same legal means as real estate transactions. The latter has a real world translation of in game currency to real world currency at a value of 10:1 if memory serves. I'd love to see others try ways to break these paradigms, but it doesn't solve the real legal issues of how a small company that has to shut down servers (bankruptcy, death of the owner, etc) resolve financial matters. Until that has a legal solution that is fair and equitable to all parties, a goose egg will continue to have more value than digital goods. I'd love the day when there is a legal precedent on such matters that gives digital goods an actual value, but until that paradigm shift, we have to work with what we have.

In conclusion, can you call what is going on right now extortion? Yep. Still fits the definition. Can you call it illegal? Nope. As argued, there is no real world value for the goods being extorted, so therefore cannot be illegal. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. It's an open world game where people can behave in a wide variety of manners due to a very, very lose "fair play" policy. But who's responsible for enforcing 'fair' in an open world game? Who has been empowered to enforce fair in a open world game? "You."

As far as the review, I consider it a fair opinion. The person tried the game, liked parts, didn't like other parts. That everyone has gotten caught up on shubla and snail's actions the last few pages are just disgraceful. I just have three words: 'hook,' 'line,' and 'sinker.' (As in the fisherman metaphor "he just swallowed that bait hook, line, and sinker.")

FWIW: jorb and loftar are aware of the matter.

You seem to have made the mistake of not reading my posts. I am not accusing Snail of anything, im saying that it is Shubla who is doing these things. Whether it is extortion or blackmail is neither here nor there, the fact is that he, in essence, held the devs hostage using their own game by saying he will continue killing people until they change a mechanic. The devs, having given in to his demands, have now set a precedent, 'if you dont like something, just threaten people in the game and we will submit to your demands'. As far as i, and several other people are concerned, this is a far bigger threat to the game than anything Snail may or may not have done.
That is why this is relevant to the OP, it blames all of the games problems on Snail, when there are quite clearly far worse people playing, and getting away with their behaviour. Shubla needs to be held account for his blatant disregard for anyone else.

[MagicManICT]

You seem to have made the mistake of not reading my posts.

You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that my public statement is only meant for you. One of the major downsides of English is there is no "second person plural" as exists in some other languages.

Otherwise, in general, I'm writing about the general complaints about individuals. You might be complaining about shubla's antics earlier in the year. Others write about SnuggleSnail. Yet others have had all kinds of mean things said about them for doing things that, effectively, are fair in a game such as Haven.

You just happened to have the misfortune of being the person quoted. Apologies for that.