Stop bullying the devs, It's counterproductive

[DonVelD]

pretty much this ^
jorb fix this shit and game will be like 10x better

[vatas]

If I don't address a point, assume I either agree with it or don't know enough to form an opinion.

Red-hand only lasts 15 minutes too long instead of 55

My idea (that I so far have only thrown in the Discord C&I channel) is the following system:

• There is some way to raise the "Civilization Level" of a province.
• All provinces start at zero and can be reduced to that, either through Decay or Barbarism.
• Red-handed buff scales off Civilization level (zero minutes at zero percent, one hour at one hundred percent)
• I don't have exact idea on how the level is raised, but my concept would be that while there is some timegated system to inflict Barbarism, if "civilized" people are persistent enough, they can still slowly raise it (or at least maintain it)
• This is basically a DNA transplant from EVE Online's security status system, except the "security status" is determined by player interactions.

Hunger matters, playing the game makes you weaker & feels awful

My opinion of Hunger system has many similarities with my opinion of Europa Universalis 4. Both are fundamentally bad implementations of an idea with great potential, attempts to improve them can yield results but are ultimately an act of polishing the turd, and it took me too long to admit the fact.

Enforcing variety in food created awful, unfun metas with regard to FEP gain

I liked the change that every food has its own satiety, I thought it was great indirect buff to underused foods. But yes, its also indirect nerf to foods like Autumn Steak and Meatpie. Possibly another case of polishing the turd.

Timed satiations encourage/require you to play very consistently over a long period instead of just when you feel like it

I forgot to actually critique Hunger. It's ostensibly some form of catch-up mechanic, but in practice in punishes you for not having eaten anything in past three months (to take benefit of hunger regeneration) if you start 3 months into the world. Satiations presumably have vaguely similar issue where idea is to prevent suddenly gaining 100 STR by eating one hundred meat pies. But the player who started three months ago has again wasted three months worth of satiations regeneration.

Siege gone
Death gone

The problem here is that devs are doing the equivalent of: "Dota, but everything is balanced around player having no idea that you get gold from lasthitting, and you win the game by destroying the enemy ancient. Very little effort is spent on communicating either thing to the player."
This is inaccurate and hyperbolic, but I stand that the spirit of the problem is exactly this.

Oceans (especially without a central continent) making the map way too big

Glad that we at least partially agree on the central continent thing.

Oceans created a very boat-centric meta that is extremely unfun

Makes sense. Legacy fights very boat-centric too (as far as I know) due to extensive river network. However you could the chase target into a dead end. With oceans, you could do endless chase around a continent.

Credos are (drastically) harder to get

I'm assuming you're referring to the fact that they removed resetting your quest counter by intentionally killing on your character. I hope we can agree that while Credo system definitely could be tuned, that should not be brought back.
Devs addressed this by changing the amount of quests per level from "2+(2 x amount of credos completed)" to "2+(amount of credos completed.)"
The Mystic was at unacceptable state until the drugs rework, I remember going nomad Prerequisites -> Nomad -> Mystic and spending 3 months on "Experience "Sensing the Beast."

Bunch of power crept mandatory bullshit added (whales, truffles) that are unfun to farm

Whales should give something crazy like 1k units of meat that is "inferior" to other options.

[SnuggleSnail]

The specific problems/solutions aren't worth discussing. Most major issues have obvious time/cost effective solutions. The problem with the game is that J&L can't identify/prioritize issues or solutions, leading to every update being a dice roll between better/worse.

gamba has a negative outcome on average

[BoxingRock]

The specific problems/solutions aren't worth discussing. Most major issues have obvious time/cost effective solutions. The problem with the game is that J&L can't identify/prioritize issues or solutions, leading to every update being a dice roll between better/worse.

This is the only relevant nugget of info that should be considered before any conversation about development.

Many of the same problems have persisted in this game for 5+ years.
Maybe the last few years worth of updates have included content that is fun and interesting, and fluffy enough to make the game feel more alive, but generally every time J&L touch some fundamental aspect of the game, it's a mess.
Every update that isn't just a shitty sausage or curio or new bird is literally as good as a dice roll.

I think at this point it's clearer than ever that all the pipedreams people have are going to remain pipedreams. We just saw simple item stacking take 3 months to implement and both iterations it rolled out in didn't receive a hot second of bugtesting. I mean, fuck, 1000s of seeds are still being voided due to the one of the minor asterisks in the first iteration of stacks from 2 months ago.

The game is as good as dead, and pretending it's not is just sad. And clapping and giving praise when the dice roll of a monthly update is leaning positive is fucking absurd.

The whole argument of "the devs owe you nothing" is an empty, soulless bootlick. The people who feel "owed" don't give a shit how much money they spent on this game. It's a matter of basic human nature. People have literally grown up in this community and have followed this game for over a decade. Watching it succumb to this slow, painful and embarrassingly preventable death is sad. Disappointing? Upsetting even? Being emotional, angry, and outspoken about it is 100% justified.
Players have been strung along on false promises, "considered" fixes that receive massive positive community feedback, and over a decade of parroted pleasantries. "we're listening" "we care" "please tell us what you think"
All this has amounted to is about 1 in 20 updates being completely deleted within a day of their implementation and all of the dev time being wasted. Meanwhile, all the players really want is communication and transparency, but we have never gotten it and will never get it.

If you are singing praise, defending the development of this game, or even remaining neutral while you wade in the shit and continue to resub, you are literally the reason why we're here. You are the ones to blame.

Haven is a gift to bootlickers and nobody else.

[Kaios]

If the only reason an individual chooses to play a game is that sometimes it puts you in to a scenario with high stakes outcomes, is that really much of a reason in the first place?

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Most major issues have obvious time/cost effective solutions.

I understand autism makes it hard to understand certain social cues, but haven't you gotten some less than subtle messages that your playstyle is viewed as unintended albeit tolerated?

My best interpretation of the fairly clear vision that Jorb and Loftar communicated is that they've always wanted the freedom of player interaction and ganking, but have never viewed the game as a competitive PvP experience, designed to be played efficiently as possible.

It's much more about the exploration, discovery, experimentation, and social sandbox elements.

Virtually everything you suggest is an "obvious implementation" only if you ignore other players of different playstyles. I realize I'm wasting my time talking to the most self-absorbed autist of them all, but you may be able to understand something a little simpler:

Fox population closely tracks available prey population. If there is a dearth of prey, foxes starve and die. You can indirectly improve fox population and quality of life by ensuring the prey prosper.

[SnuggleSnail]

I have subjective ideals, shocker. Not what we're talking about. The game is full of objectively bad design that benefits exactly zero people/play-styles, many of which could be fixed/mitigated in (literally) minutes. Boulders.

They've out-right stated multiple times they want to support faction PVP. It being bad is caused by incompetence, not design.

Swear2god pretentious fart sniffing boomers with philosopher PFPs are worse than anime PFP zoomers

[Audiosmurf]

Snail, being a haughty autistic 4channer doesn't make you smart and I'm beginning to sincerely doubt that you realize that.

[reexar77]

Most major issues have obvious time/cost effective solutions.

I understand autism makes it hard to understand certain social cues, but haven't you gotten some less than subtle messages that your playstyle is viewed as unintended albeit tolerated?

My best interpretation of the fairly clear vision that Jorb and Loftar communicated is that they've always wanted the freedom of player interaction and ganking, but have never viewed the game as a competitive PvP experience, designed to be played efficiently as possible.

It's much more about the exploration, discovery, experimentation, and social sandbox elements.

Virtually everything you suggest is an "obvious implementation" only if you ignore other players of different playstyles. I realize I'm wasting my time talking to the most self-absorbed autist of them all, but you may be able to understand something a little simpler:

Fox population closely tracks available prey population. If there is a dearth of prey, foxes starve and die. You can indirectly improve fox population and quality of life by ensuring the prey prosper.

Agree, Larping villages, markets, friendly goofy hermits they bring tons of joy to the game , exploring the map foraging stumbling across funny looking bases , rune stones , looting abandoned bases is also noice.

gathering with friendly groups playing instruments , hunting at your own pace , learning ways to kill things without cheesing their AI etc.

This game some can treat it as a competition, but seeing as all worlds reset, what is truly a end goal? beat the shit out of all the neighbors this month? the next 3 months? next year do it again? Tight schedule peeps , some sprucecap needs murdering so I will stay up 24h to bash into their home? main reason they increased siege timers, some wastes of life would actually stay up day and night to bring misfortune to some goofy player frolicking in his field.

Devs have freedom of hand, they can change stuff as they please, feedback is great, but they have nothing behind them to force them into using said feedback, it's simply suggestions for their final idea.

[Clemins]

The only thing I understand about haven/jorb&loftar is that I understand nothing.

It's impossible to assume they intend for anything if they don't actually express it, it's literally no different from me assuming the game is meant to be PVP focused and you assuming it's whatever you feel it is.

Play how you guys want, but as long as mechanics both exist for PVP and farming and they don't express their vision for Haven, ultimately no one here is right.

However, jorb did say this once upon a time:

Developer Thoughts on PvP
Link: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710

*Edited to increase link visibility