Is Brexit rooted in deep psychological white-guilt?

[Ysh]

That such fear is or isn't legitimate has nothing to do with the fact that manipulating public opinion toward infringement of basic decency (when not basic human rights) is reproachable.

If fear is legitimate then this is not manipulation.

[Eemerald]

You are extremely naive if you think people crave freedom rather than standard of living. People will accept the worst bullshit as long as their kids have something to eat. And sure UK has less of a muslim imigration problem NOW but Germany is pushing hard for the other countries to accept more muslims. Wasn't there a statistic that said the most used name for 1-5 male children in London is Mohamed and variations? And yes they have different values. Gays? Most muslims in England think they should be outlawed. Women rights? Sharia law. Separation of church and state. In all these the migrants differ in ideology. New Years Eve Cologne? That happened and it was imigrants. Let's not paint all migrants as doctors and decent folk trying to intregrate because they aren't. Besides skilled workers would get visas anyway like they did before with a controled migration system.

It might not be the PC or heck even the human thing to do but the issue of migration is a reasonable concern.

I honestly disagree with much of what you say.

Because what you're talking about now is not about the EU and it's relationship to the UK. nor is it migration as such.

And maybe it's naïve, but id suggest that maybe you are just not connected to or familiar with many people who risk their lives to seek freedoms in the world and in turn end up in other countries in order to remain alive for their freedoms and values they hold. and yes I don't doubt that the ability to feel secure and know you can feed your kids and pay the bills and have your basic needs met is a very legitimate reason for someone to seek a better life elsewhere, that is fine. I accept that. we do it ourselves even when we're comfortable.

I know many non religious people and other religious people who aren't muslim who have an issue with homophobia. I also know way too many people who have an issue with the notion of women's rights and who mistreat women or every faith and non, and every background. and what happened in Cologne was a much bigger issue that migrants being terrible people who assault women, and there were many account later that stated that only 2 men were migrants from like 15 who were part of those attacks. regardless, sexual assault, rape, the acceptance of certain negative behaviours towards women, attitudes towards women, domestic violence, the way crimes against women are treated in our societies are still a massive concern, and pretending to give a shit about it when migrants do it, because it makes us all feel a bit better about ourselves, just doesn't sit well with me. If you really cared about sexual assault of women in your country, then care regardless of who has done it.

and refugees and migrants are two very different things.

As someone said to me once, 'There are shit people everywhere and awesome people everywhere, regardless of race, faith or where they happen to have been born'.

anyway Brexit and it's uncertainty has been a massive deal in this country, and migration is not going to stop and it's not something any of the Brexiteers (though most have filtered away since the referendum) are going to be able to achieve. whether we're in the EU or part of something else, the free movement of people will be expected.


Dageir, I do think there needs to be a lot of change in the EU in order to make it more representative without so many unelected officials dictating laws. But I don't think the solution comes from leaving a union with neighbouring countries.

[dageir]

The EU is a fragile construct. It works best when the waters are calm with no internal or external threats.
Its like big gelatinous blob with no spikes or defense with no nervous system. Decision making is
painfully slow. Also the EU benefits the poor and developing (in an intra-EU context) countries the most.
That is all well and good, but in times with scarcer resources and fewer jobs there will be people in the more wealthy countries that
become unemployed and feel that they lose what is rightfully theirs (which it is not). Add increased migration to the mix, and well, you
can see what happens.

The north-west part of Europe would benefit from breaking out of the EU and continue free flow of everything within a nort-western unit.
The south and east would benefit from the existing but reformed EU.
Russia thinks it benefits from the breakdown of Europe. They think wrong. It will give them a temporary increase in significance,
but the Russians do not really want stronger national states in Europe. They are better off with a slow, big blob.
I am not sure if the USA gives a crap. Apparently the current government wants the EU to be one unit. It keeps the europeans from slaughtering
eachother again at least.. It is also easier commercially.
The Chinese will sell their merchandise no matter how the Europeans organize themselves. Basically the EU is no threat to them (or anyone else really).

[Jalpha]

I think Russia is pretty dense if they think a divided Europe would fall easier than the EU. They tend to band together when threatened and they have a lot of friends in other places.

I like to imagine that nowdays all the wars between the powerful nations are fought economically on the global market instead of physically in the world. China has embraced this philosophy for now at least. I do think that in the face of resource scarcity however things may devolve again depending upon which path we all choose.

[Hasta]

I think Russia is pretty dense if they think a divided Europe would fall easier than the EU. They tend to band together when threatened and they have a lot of friends in other places.

That's right only if you assume Russia wants to benefit only from "Europe's fall". Why don't allow a possibility for Russia to want to become one of those firends in other places? Can't do that with a "big slow blob" because of it being slow and blobby (and mutually restraining between it's parts). Easier to mend fences gradually with national states one by one, when they don't look back above their shoulder at noone but themselves for answers on how to behave.

[Jalpha]

I suppose that's possible but it does seem rather sanguine. Is it more likely perhaps that by keeping the EU from becoming the streamlined economic powerhouse it maybe has the potential to be they secure their own future in the long term?

Does the EU even have that potential?

[Eemerald]

The EU is a fragile construct. It works best when the waters are calm with no internal or external threats.
Its like big gelatinous blob with no spikes or defense with no nervous system. Decision making is
painfully slow. Also the EU benefits the poor and developing (in an intra-EU context) countries the most.
That is all well and good, but in times with scarcer resources and fewer jobs there will be people in the more wealthy countries that
become unemployed and feel that they lose what is rightfully theirs (which it is not). Add increased migration to the mix, and well, you
can see what happens.

The north-west part of Europe would benefit from breaking out of the EU and continue free flow of everything within a nort-western unit.
The south and east would benefit from the existing but reformed EU.
Russia thinks it benefits from the breakdown of Europe. They think wrong. It will give them a temporary increase in significance,
but the Russians do not really want stronger national states in Europe. They are better off with a slow, big blob.
I am not sure if the USA gives a crap. Apparently the current government wants the EU to be one unit. It keeps the europeans from slaughtering
eachother again at least.. It is also easier commercially.
The Chinese will sell their merchandise no matter how the Europeans organize themselves. Basically the EU is no threat to them (or anyone else really).

tbh theres a lot of European money in the UK that benefits people of all social levels. The amount of money provided to universities for post graduate research tends to com from EU pots of money, a lot of infrastructure in cities benefits a massive range of people, as well as development of existing spaces, not to mention the number of businesses which set up in the UK at the very least in order to access the European single market etc.

I do honestly think that fear combined with many people really not knowing that they benefit so greatly from being part of the EU, is what has put us in this position. and maybe it's a good wake up call for people...when you listen to liars who fuel your fears in order to make disastrous decisions instead of doing your own research objectively.

peace in Europe is very much a good reason to be united.

[Salad]

peace in Europe is very much a good reason to be united.

Do you really need some stupid union to be at peace?

[dageir]

peace in Europe is very much a good reason to be united.

Do you really need some stupid union to be at peace?

Where are you from again, Salad?

[Hasta]

peace in Europe is very much a good reason to be united.

Do you really need some stupid union to be at peace?

Where are you from again, Salad?

Zing!