Do you think jorb still enjoys working on the game?

[Robben_DuMarsch]

I mean right now Haven is a gankers paradise where if you can run you're going to escape even organized retaliatory attempts the vast majority of the time.

Jorb has in the past talked about society, player imposed justice, etc, etc. If he knew how easy it was (and especially has become now the kritter clicking is so easy on modern clients) to escape, he might be tempted to change it again despite PvPer protests.

Maybe he wouldn't do it via removal of forager and bunny speed, but it seems like the reality of PvP in Haven more or less doesn't fit his initial vision. It's kinda just a gank box, unless you're fighting for some objective.

It seems that's what virtually every Haven PvPer wants, though, so I'm not surprised it turned out this way with the feedback he's gotten. Noinek is right to point out that Jorb may not truly understand that's what he's made.

Ganking players, committing crimes, the risk and reward ratio is surely far off from where it should be. It's also unintuitive for new players, and you more or less need to befriend a PvPer to teach you arbitrary shit and provide you with a client (hopefully soon to change, Enders is 85% there.)

But I don't care enough to be suggesting or pushing for changes. I'm a PvPer, I run security and the "militia" for the biggest village in the the game, and I spend probably 1% of my time in game actually doing PvP. Most players probably spend almost no time whatsoever, until some guy comes up and ganks them or extorts them.

No system is perfect and what we have functions well enough for the true purpose: Creating meaningful player interactions, dramatic tension and catharsis, and a theoretical end goal or purpose for a lot of what we do (quality gains and FEP grind.)

[Shitten_DuPants]

In the realm of sandbox MMORPGs, the debate between player-versus-player (PvP) and peace-oriented gameplay has long been a contentious one. Sandbox MMORPGs, known for their open-world environments and player-driven content, offer a unique canvas for gamers to explore. However, the dynamic nature of PvP often proves to be a more compelling and enriching element than peace-centric gameplay for several reasons.

Firstly, PvP introduces a layer of unpredictability and excitement that static, peace-oriented gameplay cannot match. In a sandbox environment, players are often looking for engaging experiences that evolve and adapt in real-time. PvP creates a living, breathing world where players’ actions have immediate and sometimes unforeseen consequences. This unpredictability keeps the gameplay fresh and engaging, as players must continually adapt their strategies and approach to survive and thrive. In contrast, peace-centric worlds can become monotonous and stagnant, as they lack the dynamic interactions that PvP naturally fosters.

Secondly, PvP encourages a more immersive and interactive world. In a sandbox MMORPG, immersion is key to maintaining player interest. PvP introduces conflict and competition, which are fundamental aspects of human nature and storytelling. These elements make the game world feel more alive and responsive to players’ actions. Peaceful environments, while relaxing, often lack the tension and stakes that drive deeper engagement. PvP interactions, such as territorial disputes or faction conflicts, make the game world more vibrant and reflective of a truly dynamic universe.

Moreover, PvP fosters a sense of progression and achievement that is often more rewarding than the often limited rewards of peaceful gameplay. In PvP scenarios, players can gain recognition, prestige, and tangible rewards through their combat prowess and strategic skills. Victories in PvP battles can lead to higher rankings, valuable loot, and the satisfaction of overcoming formidable opponents. Peaceful gameplay, on the other hand, may offer limited means for players to demonstrate their skills and achievements, which can lead to a less fulfilling experience for those who thrive on competition and challenge.

Additionally, the social dynamics of PvP contribute to a richer community experience within sandbox MMORPGs. PvP often leads to the formation of alliances, rivalries, and political intrigue among players. These social interactions can enhance the depth of the game’s community, as players work together or against each other in complex ways. This fosters a more engaging and interconnected player base, which can lead to more vibrant and diverse interactions compared to the often more homogeneous experiences found in peace-focused environments.

Furthermore, PvP can lead to a more balanced and fair gameplay experience. In a sandbox MMORPG, players are often concerned with issues of fairness and balance. PvP introduces mechanisms for addressing these concerns directly, such as balance adjustments and competitive seasons. Players can have a direct impact on the game's meta and balance through their actions and strategies. In contrast, peace-oriented gameplay may not offer the same level of balance and fairness, as it can be harder to implement and manage in a static, non-competitive environment.

From a development perspective, incorporating PvP into sandbox MMORPGs can also drive innovation and creativity. Game developers are often challenged to create engaging and balanced PvP systems, leading to more inventive gameplay mechanics and features. This drive for innovation can result in a more polished and refined gaming experience overall. Peaceful gameplay, while less demanding in terms of balance and innovation, may not push the boundaries of game design in the same way.

In conclusion, while peaceful gameplay has its place and can offer a different kind of enjoyment, PvP stands out as a more dynamic and compelling choice for sandbox MMORPGs. Its ability to create unpredictable, immersive, and engaging experiences, coupled with its potential for fostering social interactions and driving innovation, makes it a preferable option for many players and developers. PvP introduces a level of excitement and challenge that enhances the sandbox experience, ensuring that the game world remains vibrant and engaging for all participants.

[joojoo1975]

I believe the majority miss a crucial point.

This game, has become in the state it is, Primarily how easy it is to recover from death.

When I first joined this game. Death was the Biggest factor in the game. Mind you, back then, we did not have the curio system and most people had 2 possibly 3 characters max. As you had to actually play the character in order to get LP. Now, I Will talk about those who had bots and thus had more characters in a minute. But back then character loss took Weeks or even months depending on the stats. This is all lost now to the fact, in part, to the Curio system.

Long, LONG time ago, there was a movement pleading with J & L to do something about the bots. Were they rampant? That would be a matter of point of view. For one point, trying to find trees back then. . . one would only see a miles upon miles of stumps (ole bucket bot) But when you came on forums, there was a quasi justice about as players went after the "badguy" and for the most part justice was dealt. When villages war'd with each other, A lot of it was on forums and skirmishes were few, but Very meaningful. If you had decent to high stats, you never took PvP lightly. Most times skullduggery was out and about as it was So much easier to try to get a player into an enemy village and earn the trust in order to get at the gates, or what usually happened, the "spy" would wait till no one was on and then began destroying and looting in order to Really set that village back.

Bottom line is, who knows where this game would be if J & L had done something to combat the bots(if they were even able to) instead of putting in the curio system.

[terechgracz]

In the realm of sandbox MMORPGs, the debate between player-versus-player (PvP) and peace-oriented gameplay has long been a contentious one. Sandbox MMORPGs, known for their open-world environments and player-driven content, offer a unique canvas for gamers to explore. However, the dynamic nature of PvP often proves to be a more compelling and enriching element than peace-centric gameplay for several reasons.

Firstly, PvP introduces a layer of unpredictability and excitement that static, peace-oriented gameplay cannot match. In a sandbox environment, players are often looking for engaging experiences that evolve and adapt in real-time. PvP creates a living, breathing world where players’ actions have immediate and sometimes unforeseen consequences. This unpredictability keeps the gameplay fresh and engaging, as players must continually adapt their strategies and approach to survive and thrive. In contrast, peace-centric worlds can become monotonous and stagnant, as they lack the dynamic interactions that PvP naturally fosters.

Secondly, PvP encourages a more immersive and interactive world. In a sandbox MMORPG, immersion is key to maintaining player interest. PvP introduces conflict and competition, which are fundamental aspects of human nature and storytelling. These elements make the game world feel more alive and responsive to players’ actions. Peaceful environments, while relaxing, often lack the tension and stakes that drive deeper engagement. PvP interactions, such as territorial disputes or faction conflicts, make the game world more vibrant and reflective of a truly dynamic universe.

Moreover, PvP fosters a sense of progression and achievement that is often more rewarding than the often limited rewards of peaceful gameplay. In PvP scenarios, players can gain recognition, prestige, and tangible rewards through their combat prowess and strategic skills. Victories in PvP battles can lead to higher rankings, valuable loot, and the satisfaction of overcoming formidable opponents. Peaceful gameplay, on the other hand, may offer limited means for players to demonstrate their skills and achievements, which can lead to a less fulfilling experience for those who thrive on competition and challenge.

Additionally, the social dynamics of PvP contribute to a richer community experience within sandbox MMORPGs. PvP often leads to the formation of alliances, rivalries, and political intrigue among players. These social interactions can enhance the depth of the game’s community, as players work together or against each other in complex ways. This fosters a more engaging and interconnected player base, which can lead to more vibrant and diverse interactions compared to the often more homogeneous experiences found in peace-focused environments.

Furthermore, PvP can lead to a more balanced and fair gameplay experience. In a sandbox MMORPG, players are often concerned with issues of fairness and balance. PvP introduces mechanisms for addressing these concerns directly, such as balance adjustments and competitive seasons. Players can have a direct impact on the game's meta and balance through their actions and strategies. In contrast, peace-oriented gameplay may not offer the same level of balance and fairness, as it can be harder to implement and manage in a static, non-competitive environment.

From a development perspective, incorporating PvP into sandbox MMORPGs can also drive innovation and creativity. Game developers are often challenged to create engaging and balanced PvP systems, leading to more inventive gameplay mechanics and features. This drive for innovation can result in a more polished and refined gaming experience overall. Peaceful gameplay, while less demanding in terms of balance and innovation, may not push the boundaries of game design in the same way.

In conclusion, while peaceful gameplay has its place and can offer a different kind of enjoyment, PvP stands out as a more dynamic and compelling choice for sandbox MMORPGs. Its ability to create unpredictable, immersive, and engaging experiences, coupled with its potential for fostering social interactions and driving innovation, makes it a preferable option for many players and developers. PvP introduces a level of excitement and challenge that enhances the sandbox experience, ensuring that the game world remains vibrant and engaging for all participants.

I agree! Never seen post so comprehensive and on point. You're really clever.

[DonVelD]

I mean right now Slopland is a pigsty where if you can slop away, you're going to slip through even the muddiest retaliatory slop the vast majority of the time.

Sloplord has in the past talked about pig society, hog-imposed justice, etc. If he knew how easy it was (especially since piglet-dashing is so easy with modern slop-hooves) to slop out of trouble, he might be tempted to stir up the trough again despite the squeals of the piggies.

Maybe he wouldn’t do it by taking away the forager’s trot or piglet-speed, but it feels like the reality of slopping around in Slopland doesn’t quite match his original pigpen vision. It’s more of a mud-wrestling pit, unless you’re rooting around for some specific slop.

It seems that’s what every piggy slopper really wants, though, so I’m not surprised it ended up this way, given the feedback he’s gotten. Slop-oink is right to point out that Sloplord may not fully understand the pigpen he’s built.

Slopping other piggies, committing pig crimes—let’s be honest, the risk-to-slop ratio is totally out of whack. It’s also muddy and confusing for new piglets, who pretty much have to befriend a piggy veteran to teach them random hog-tricks and help them wallow with the right kind of slop (hopefully, Sloppy-Ender is 85% done).

But I don’t care enough to push for a new pigpen. I’m a slopper; I run slop security and manage the ‘hog militia’ for the biggest pigpen in the game. Yet I probably spend 1% of my time actually wrestling in the mud. Most pigs hardly ever roll in the muck, until some big boar comes along to gank or extort them.

No pigpen is perfect, and what we’ve got works well enough for its true purpose: Creating meaningful piggy interactions, dramatic slop-fueled tension, and a final goal for all this rooting and FEP-fattening we do.

[dafels]

I think Jorb enjoys working on the game very much

[Flushin_DaToilet]

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[terechgracz]

I mean right now Haven is a gankers paradise where if you can run you're going to escape even organized retaliatory attempts the vast majority of the time.

Jorb has in the past talked about society, player imposed justice, etc, etc. If he knew how easy it was (and especially has become now the kritter clicking is so easy on modern clients) to escape, he might be tempted to change it again despite PvPer protests.

Maybe he wouldn't do it via removal of forager and bunny speed, but it seems like the reality of PvP in Haven more or less doesn't fit his initial vision. It's kinda just a gank box, unless you're fighting for some objective.

It seems that's what virtually every Haven PvPer wants, though, so I'm not surprised it turned out this way with the feedback he's gotten. Noinek is right to point out that Jorb may not truly understand that's what he's made.

Ganking players, committing crimes, the risk and reward ratio is surely far off from where it should be. It's also unintuitive for new players, and you more or less need to befriend a PvPer to teach you arbitrary shit and provide you with a client (hopefully soon to change, Enders is 85% there.)

But I don't care enough to be suggesting or pushing for changes. I'm a PvPer, I run security and the "militia" for the biggest village in the the game, and I spend probably 1% of my time in game actually doing PvP. Most players probably spend almost no time whatsoever, until some guy comes up and ganks them or extorts them.

No system is perfect and what we have functions well enough for the true purpose: Creating meaningful player interactions, dramatic tension and catharsis, and a theoretical end goal or purpose for a lot of what we do (quality gains and FEP grind.)

Tldr: ultra galaxy brain meltdown

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Tldr: ultra galaxy brain meltdown

Hardly a meltdown. It was basically a long winded way to say that combat doesn't matter all that much because it's a very small part of the game.

But in making that point, it appears I've raised some uncomfortable truths about the state of PvP, because you're over here on alts trying to "Reee" it out of existence.

[DonVelD]

no its because everyone dislikes you as a person so its funny to mock everything you say. you should grow as a person and become more likable instead of yapping out of your ass

no, it's just that everyone sees you as a pig in the pen, so it's amusing to snort at every grunt you make. you should grow out of the sty and become more likable, instead of constantly slinging slop from your trough